B-17G and bomber formations AI

[[DBS]TH0R]

Since Wags, in his Normandy WWII stream, mentioned bomber AI and formations being in the works, thought I'd share something my group came up with. Or better, the results of the study we did on how 8th AF flew bomber formations in WWII. There is much more to the "combat box" than wiki would tell you. :)

 

Standard ... 21 | 3 x 7 plane element formation

 

The most straightforward formation to fly. 3 large elements with planes stacked behind and below each other in groups of 3. 3 main elements fly stacked against each other.

 

Here is a video animation done long time ago for the purposes of teaching new pilots flying with us:

 

 

 

 

And few photos of it in practice:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Javelin Down ... 18 | 6 x 3 plane element formation

 

Those of you who played EAW should remember this one, since it was used throughout the whole game on every mission involving heavies.

 

Images and 3D animation:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Combat Box ... 18 | 6 x 3 plane element formation

 

Finally a proper Combat Box formation. An evolution of the Javelin Down, and the most difficult to fly and hold together. But, offers the best protection.

 

Some images from this video (in general recommended watching, on the subject):

 

 

LEFT VIEW:

 

 

TOP VIEW*:

 

 

FRONT VIEW:

 

 

* In the linked video Top View is shown wrong, it isn't possible to follow planes in front and below your nose! The captured shot here is mirrored from the one shown in the video.

 

 

It is difficult to distinguish Javelin Down from a proper Combat Box, here are some photos of the other two formations in practice:

 

 

 

 

 

Not saying that these are the only formations that were flown, but these are the most documented ones and easiest to understand. The combat box as such is often poorly understood and most people think it involves nothing more than a bunch of planes flying close together without any rules or guidelines. In fact, direct opposite is true, as evident on the linked video and photos.

 

Hope that we get to see some of these when Normandy gets out, or in the near future. The gorgeous B-17G model is asking for the same quality of the AI and bomber formations. :pilotfly:

Edited March 19, 2017 by T}{OR

[joey45]

Very interesting.

[Captain Orso]

Great post T}{OR :thumbup:

[REDEYE_CVW-66]

I hope that DCS implement at least one of these variants with one group/flight able to sustain 18 aircraft, so we don't have to fiddle with many flights setting up a bomber force.

 

Very good post!

[OnlyforDCS]

Well you learn something new every day :) Nice post OP! :)

[JUICE-AWG]

Is it too much to wish for and desire a multi-crew B-17 with all playable positions so we can fend off fighters, bomb factories, and fly this legendary WWII icon?

[graber77]

+++++1

[=Pedro=]

+++++1

 

+1

[Wags]

Formation type options.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Looks promising. Can't wait to try it out in-game. :thumbup:

[TwoLate]

Awesome thanks Wags.

[[DBS]TH0R]

I realize this is all WIP. However, just one small remark about the standard 12 plane box:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3133975&postcount=43

 

- The planes don't fly staggered in the second and third element. Only the last element flies lower than the lead, for the box to be effective all elements should fly at their own altitude

[Kayos]

Will we be able to use bomber formations with the modern bombers on Normandy as well on the other 2 maps?

[michelip]

Does anyone know if it is possible (or will be possible) to arm (with bombs) the AI B-17's in the Normandy theatre? Regardless of mission type, they all show as unarmed.

Regards,

Mich.

[Andy1966]

click on "new loadout" then bombs will be there

[Captain Orso]

They just don't work correctly yet; only one bomb actually drops.

 

Also, as a tip, you have to have enough standoff between the waypoint with the bombing action and the target. Depending on the altitude, the formation, and the type of bombing action, the group formation will change, and then the AC need to line up correctly and the bombs need to be dropped early enough for them to actually have a chance at hitting the target.

 

If you don't allow enough time for any of these points, the bombing will be aborted and no bombs will be dropped. Unfortunately, there are no indicators telling you how far in front of the target you have to set the waypoint with the bombing action, but from my testing, setting it very early doesn't hurt, other than maybe restricting room for any pre-bombardment-run-in maneuvering.

 

Also, if you are using the Bomber element group formation, if you are using the Close or Close group types, anything but minimal course change causes a lot of mid-air collision. Best to use Open formation type, and event then I've seen collision; just not as many.

[michelip]

Thanks Andy & Orso - Will give it another go.

Cheers,

Mich

[Reflected]

I found that if it's not absolutely necessary for the bombers to destroy something, it's best not to make them bomb. I just set them up to "no reaction to threat", and make them fly formation. For intercept/ escort purposes that's perfectly enough.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Managed to set up 2 out of 3 formations from the first post. Not bad for an alpha build:

 

18 plane 3x6 ship element:

 

 

18 plane Javelin Down:

 

 

Close up beauty shots:

 

 

Bomb run and cohesive formation finishing 180° turn:

 

[Reflected]

When I set the task "WW2 carpet bombing" the bombers start to dive on the target, out of formation. Why is that? :o

[rel4y]

Thats really nice work right there. Do you guys also get like a rubber banding effect of the bombers following the leader? It is like they fall behind and then accelerate and start catching up again. This completely messes up the formation in my case.

[Captain Orso]

When I set the task "WW2 carpet bombing" the bombers start to dive on the target, out of formation. Why is that? :o

 

Check the altitudes of your waypoints. The last waypoints before the bombing task waypoint, and the bombing task waypoint should be at the same altitude. Set the altitude in the bombing task accordingly (add the check mark).

[Captain Orso]

Thats really nice work right there. Do you guys also get like a rubber banding effect of the bombers following the leader? It is like they fall behind and then accelerate and start catching up again. This completely messes up the formation in my case.

 

Yeah, I've seen some of that. I have no idea what this happens, but I'm chalking it up to WIP for the moment.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Formation examples

 

Been playing around some more with possible formations, and this an example what you can currently build within DCS World. I hope this will help those trying to build their own formations.

 

1. Basic 3x3 flying level
   
2. Basic 3x3 with height separation
   
3. Basic 3x4 with height separation
   
4. Full wing 3x3x3 with height separation *
   
5. Full wing 3x3x3 flying level
   
6. Full wing 3x4x3 with outer 3x4 set to wing positions
   
7. Javelin Down 3x3x3 with height separation *
   
8. Javelin Down 6x3 with height separation
   

 

(1-6 use Combat Box, 7 and 8 use Javelin Down)

 

* Though they look the same, it is better to use Combat Box option since in Javelin Down left high group and right low group elements fly directly behind wing element of the lead group thus obstructing line of fire at 6 OC.

 

SCREENS: https://postimg.org/gallery/dvgqnp58/

 

Javelin Down also differs from Combat Box in a way that it can set up 4 different wings, one flying behind another, together forming a bomber stream. Combat Box at its maximum (top) option / distance / separation only builds a large box where each group flies level. Mixing both options should yield best results.

 

Sadly though, a proper 18 plane Combat Box is not possible to build, due to the (correct) way of setting formations up where planes/groups on the right alway fly higher than the lead, and those on the left lower. This is applicable to bombers/planes which have a pilot on the left side (you can't look to the right and below your nose if you're sitting on the left side). Though if we ever get a Japanese G4M for the example, the option for planes and groups flying either higher or lower on both sides should exist. And that is why the Combat Box described in the first post is unique in comparison to other formations.

 

It is also not possible to build a proper 7 plane element due to limit of only 4 planes per group. 5 ship VEE is also out of the question.

 

Few more historical photos:

 

 

VEE formation

 

 

basic 3x3 level

 

 

3x4x3 wing

 

 

Source: http://www.303rdbg.com/

 

 

 

 

Missions attached below.

TH0R_Formation_01-08.rar

Edited June 4, 2017 by T}{OR