F-15 still pulling 14G with two bags and no damage

[JunMcKill]

It also doesn't help to complain about F-15's pulling 14g for two seconds. Yep, it shouldn't be possible - never mind the airframe staying in one piece, it just shouldn't be possible to reach 14g (probably). The highest recorded sustained g on an F-15 is 12.5g, and that airframe had to be scrapped (there have been other 12g incidents where the airframe was returned to service).

 

Given that this portion of the model doesn't seem to be getting addressed the question is ... is it affecting you in ways other than to make you jealous about it right now? :)

The next question is, if it was addressed, will you still be jealous when you find it won't be falling apart like a flanker anyway? :D

 

Let me remark that my post have no intention of compare with the Flanker model, ok?. I'm purely talking about the F-15 model and I dont prefer that the thread begins a SU-27 vs F-15 discussion. I dont ask to break the wings either, but at least the screws holding the tanks under the wing have a G limit. In some way like other models, the weapons, bags, etc, should be detached when the external forces reach a limit. In the future, the structural fatigue should be taken into account, for all models of course.

Edited March 27, 2017 by JunMcKill

[karambiatos]

Here is my $.02, It wasn't an issue for the SU guys at the time that they were pulling 20+G with out a care in the world. When that was rectified with a legitimate airframe destruction model, then it was nothing but cries and whines about how the f15c doesn't have a damage model. The point that GG brought up is that there isn't a need for a damage model, but just a limit on what the airframe can actually do. Since as GG mentioned as well as Sweep. The stabs cannot generate enough force to induce instantaneous catastrophic loss of the airframe like that of the SU27. While no one is arguing against a fix for the problem it should not be of the same solution to that of the su27 pfm. In that it will still draw the RU lovers in droves whining that their aircraft breaks up yet the f15c does not. The RU lovers will not be happy until they see f15c wings rip off like their beloved SU27 does even though its unrealistic for the f15c to have that happen.

 

As far as GG coming in and "Taunting" people The RU lovers have their own Trolls who taunt, as there is one confirmed RULover troll who posted in this very same thread.

 

No the issue people had with the su-27 is that the limiter which is now in game wasn't implemented leading to you being able to break apart way too easily, once that was in no one complained anymore.

[GGTharos]

The wings should break for sure. The 12.5g incident didn't break the wings but it did warp the airframe - that was with empty bags and probably less than a full fuel tank, and a couple of training missiles. If you COULD hit 14g under the same circumstances in RL, I imagine that the wings would come off.

 

If the bags were full I'd expect the aircraft to break up. That's something that has happened in RL as well - one single incident that either BeamScanner or SinusoidDelta pointed out, I forget who :)

 

But wing-breakage aside, I'd start with the hydraulic system being a little more hampered by the air resistance. Full bags + 12g (I'd say above 8g for this weight but don't quote me on that, I did the math a long time ago) should definitely take the wings off, but you just shouldn't be able to reach numbers like 14-18g.

 

Let me remark that my post have no intention of compare with the Flanker model, ok?. I'm purely talking about the F-15 model. I dont ask to break the wings either, but at least the screws holding the tanks under the wing have a G limit. In some way like other models, the weapons, bags, etc, should be detached when the external forces reach a limit.

[JunMcKill]

The wings should break for sure. The 12.5g incident didn't break the wings but it did warp the airframe - that was with empty bags and probably less than a full fuel tank, and a couple of training missiles. If you COULD hit 14g under the same circumstances in RL, I imagine that the wings would come off.

 

If the bags were full I'd expect the aircraft to break up. That's something that has happened in RL as well - one single incident that either BeamScanner or SinusoidDelta pointed out, I forget who :)

 

But wing-breakage aside, I'd start with the hydraulic system being a little more hampered by the air resistance. Full bags + 12g (I'd say above 8g for this weight but don't quote me on that, I did the math a long time ago) should definitely take the wings off, but you just shouldn't be able to reach numbers like 14-18g.

 

I know and I apreciate your help. In fact if you recall, DarkFire did the maths a while ago either, about the weight that the wings, bolts and eveerthing attached to the wing have to sustain in a 14G barrel roll, from a video that a friend of mine did. The problem is that the F-15 PFM needs to be addressed, because in some way, people are (lets say) "taking extra advantage" of his superior flight model in events, while others are subjects to more realistics FM.

Edited March 27, 2017 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

The 'taking extra advantage' is the stuff I would like to know - it can be used as justification to put something in priority.

 

There is a bunch of outstanding stuff in the F-15 PFM that can be looked at, including fuel flow too high in cruise, there's a strange control issue that can cause a very big disadvantage in a dogfight etc - the damage model is one of the bunch and I imagine you haven't seen any of this stuff mentioned as being worked on in any of the updated, so I'd say in some ways you're lucky to have Yo-Yo looking after the Su-27 :)

[JunMcKill]

The 'taking extra advantage' is the stuff I would like to know - it can be used as justification to put something in priority.

 

There is a bunch of outstanding stuff in the F-15 PFM that can be looked at, including fuel flow too high in cruise, there's a strange control issue that can cause a very big disadvantage in a dogfight etc - the damage model is one of the bunch and I imagine you haven't seen any of this stuff mentioned as being worked on in any of the updated, so I'd say in some ways you're lucky to have Yo-Yo looking after the Su-27 :)

 

I called "extra advantage" to not call it exploit, when you pull 14.8Gs in the DCS F-15C with bags and ordnance under the wings in a high energy dogfight, like the UCAV of the Stealth film!! :pilotfly:

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

Yes I understand and I agree, but to pull 15g you have to have so much speed that I'm not convinced it's really helpful, that's what I mean - just how serious is it? The turn circle will be huge :)

 

It should also lead to a quicker blackout.

[JunMcKill]

Yes I understand and I agree, but to pull 15g you have to have so much speed that I'm not convinced it's really helpful, that's what I mean - just how serious is it? The turn circle will be huge :)

 

It should also lead to a quicker blackout.

 

Thanks to that SF_Razer pulled the F-15C in a lead pursuit encounter with another F-15C at very high speed, and killed with guns to Pyromaniac in the latest event! :D

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131133808?t=02h52m57s

 

Watch at 02:52:23, 14.8G with bags!

Edited March 27, 2017 by JunMcKill

[Sweep]

Okay, 02:52:23 - Winchester blends (at 9+ G, somehow) and overstresses to hell.

 

I'm not sure what's worse...His flying or that he survived that. :megalol:

[Higgeh]

Thanks to that SF_Razer pulled the F-15C in a lead pursuit encounter with another F-15C at very high speed, and killed with guns to Pyromaniac in the latest event! :D

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131133808?t=02h52m57s

 

Watch at 02:52:23, 14.8G with bags!

 

To be honest, he could have easily got the same lead for that shot without pulling 14g by slowing a little and starting the turn a little earlier. It would be a slightly higher aspect shot, but I wouldn't consider that to be a major difference.

 

Not to offend pyromaniac, but if he had decided to fight with a break turn then you would easily see why a high energy turn (in the 14g range) is a bad idea in a dogfight.

[JunMcKill]

To be honest, he could have easily got the same lead for that shot without pulling 14g by slowing a little and starting the turn a little earlier. It would be a slightly higher aspect shot, but I wouldn't consider that to be a major difference.

 

Not to offend pyromaniac, but if he had decided to fight with a break turn then you would easily see why a high energy turn (in the 14g range) is a bad idea in a dogfight.

 

Yes and it is easier to win a chess game from the seat of the public! Next time subcribe in the event ACE! :D

 

At the speed that came Pyro, Razer could never have reached the lead without that high G turn because he didnt turn in time!

Edited March 28, 2017 by JunMcKill
spelling

[JunMcKill]

Okay, 02:52:23 - Winchester blends (at 9+ G, somehow) and overstresses to hell.

 

I'm not sure what's worse...His flying or that he survived that. :megalol:

 

Yeah! was amazing!

[Scarrface]

Yes I understand and I agree, but to pull 15g you have to have so much speed that I'm not convinced it's really helpful, that's what I mean - just how serious is it? The turn circle will be huge :)

 

It should also lead to a quicker blackout.

 

F 15 being able to pull Gs like that is already helpful because they got more room for errors and they can do it without any repercussions (blackout yes but airframe damage model wise).

[GGTharos]

And does anyone have Razer's track? Did he actually pull ~15g or is this just a product of lag? Because lag WILL make it appear to be like this. Not saying it didn't happen, but.

 

Also, it was a less than one second spike ... hardly a huge issue. Not saying it isn't one - if those bags were full then the airframe shouldn't be in flight any more regardless :D

[Higgeh]

Yes and it is easier to win a chess game from the seat of the public! Next time subcribe in the event ACE! :D

 

At the speed that came Pyro, Razer could never have reached the lead without that high G turn because he didnt turn in time!

 

Razer timed his turn with the knowledge that he had this high g capability. If he chose to limit his g then I assume he would time his turn differently. My point is that both turns would still yield a good advantageous position, so the high g capability isn't too significant here.

 

Say Pyro reduced his speed to around corner and performed a sliced break turn then Razer would have to reduce his speed also to prevent an overshoot when timing his turn. These speed reductions would eliminate the 14g capability from the equation altogether which yet again would make this ability rather insignificant.

 

Also, my statements are independent of my existence in any events. To say otherwise seems like a rather lazy attempt to dismiss my argument tbh :( ; I welcome you to expose any fallacies with logic.

 

Oh and how dare you assume I'm not an ACE! :joystick:

Edited March 28, 2017 by Higgeh

[Frostie]

Razer timed his turn with the knowledge that he had this high g capability. If he chose to limit his g then I assume he would time his turn differently. My point is that both turns would still yield a good advantageous position, so the high g capability isn't too significant here.

 

 

Of course there is a significant problem here, with more restrictive G he would need to bleed more speed to attempt the gun kill therefore losing more energy, surely this knocks on the door of common sense in losing more cash in a dogfight.

[*Rage*]

And does anyone have Razer's track? Did he actually pull ~15g or is this just a product of lag? Because lag WILL make it appear to be like this. Not saying it didn't happen, but.

 

Also, it was a less than one second spike ... hardly a huge issue. Not saying it isn't one - if those bags were full then the airframe shouldn't be in flight any more regardless :D

 

You dont need the track its very easy to do yourself. Take a full load and experiment.

 

People dont realise how much G theyre pulling till they start breaking stuff. This is especially true in the heat of combat. Currently F15 pilots can pull Gs with impunity because they know they will never break anything or lose stores or warp the aiframe etc...So they do it over and over again in MP combat. It does have an impact in MP competitions.

 

The resistence against better FM modelling is quite astonishing. They've seen what happened with the Su27 community and how its needed to adapt its flying and they've thought..Nah...id rather not modify my learned behaviours. Im not saying the F15 will break the same way. Im sure it wont. But it will have an impact.

[Fri13]

You dont need the track its very easy to do yourself. Take a full load and experiment.

 

People dont realise how much G theyre pulling till they start breaking stuff. This is especially true in the heat of combat. Currently F15 pilots can pull Gs with impunity because they know they will never break anything or lose stores or warp the aiframe etc...So they do it over and over again in MP combat. It does have an impact in MP competitions.

 

The resistence against better FM modelling is quite astonishing. Theyve seen what happened with the Su27 community and hows its needed to adapt its flying and theyve thought..Nah...id rather not modify my learned behaviours. Im not saying the F15 will break the same way. Im sure it wont. But it will have an impact.

That is the reason why I would prefer a improvement to G forces effects so they start earlier and lasts longer and are visually more realistic than just adding vignette in black or red. The hypoxia effect is already a nice addition, and similar nice looking would be needed.

 

Same way the G forces should start affecting the virtual pilot head far more so trackIR and VR users cant look around at all so easily. Pulling max G and turning head without efforts is very gamewise thing and puts no requirement to learn tactics and see them through.

 

The same thing would come to many other things like ie. HOTAS benefit that when pulling G you cant so easily operate switches and knobs or buttons but really are more tied to the HOTAS or such.

 

It would really change the dog fights as no more it would be so easy to just circle around from fight to another. Or do a fast maneuver and execute controls without any problems.

 

For experienced pilots a higher G load is trained thing. And it would as well improve the need to have the virtual pilots roster in servers and computer where after death all experience is reseted. So in time pilots would gain experience and get higher G load capabilities and so on get better to fly. It would put players to try survive more and not challenge every enemy without hesitation.

 

That would be one way to "fix" (and anyways improve gameplay) high G maneuvers and problems.

 

You wouldn't pull 14.8G and shoot the target as you wouldn't likely see anything clearly for a while after that.

[*Rage*]

Totally agree. How many youtube videos are there of pilots flying consistently on the edge of blackouts with just the centre of their screen still visible but still 100% in operation of radar modes/missile selection etc getting kills:lol:

[Fri13]

Totally agree. How many youtube videos are there of pilots flying consistently on the edge of blackouts with just the centre of their screen still visible but still 100% in operation of radar modes/missile selection etc getting kills

Like example the Mig-21Bis that now got just this week the news from devs that bug was fixed where no more the weapons pylons and type knobs and switches are absolute. Meaning no more needed in heat of dog fight to try flip a SARH mode to IR mode or select correct pylon etc, as the computer selects automatically the pylon order based the wanted type.

 

This means that in G loads you wouldn't be raising hand on top left panel to rotate knob and trying to remeber what pylon had what missile and is there missile even.

 

As well suddenly a HMS in russian aircrafts becomes more benefitting as you can keep low G load and aim and let missile do the high G pull.

 

And suddenly all would turn to situation where everyone needs to re-learn basic combat maneuvers and actually start tactics before execution as when doing the high G move you need to trust that enemy will be there where you thought it to be once you finish the maneuver.

 

As well BVR would become far more important and F-15C would gain more there.

 

Suddenly people wouldn't pull those ultra high G maneuvers as they would easily end up dead.

[Falcon_S]

Small discussion at F-16.net forum about G limits (for those who have not read)

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10663

[winchesterdelta1]

Okay, 02:52:23 - Winchester blends (at 9+ G, somehow) and overstresses to hell.

 

I'm not sure what's worse...His flying or that he survived that. :megalol:

 

Thank you for your kind words SWEEP.

[Kapsu]

Thanks to that SF_Razer pulled the F-15C in a lead pursuit encounter with another F-15C at very high speed, and killed with guns to Pyromaniac in the latest event! :D

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131133808?t=02h52m57s

 

Watch at 02:52:23, 14.8G with bags!

 

I doupt that it was that much since Tacview from server track shows "only" 11.3G at max. Probably that isn't correct one neither, but i think thats more closer to reality.

[NineLine]

Issue has been reported, no time line on a resolution...

[Sweep]

The resistence against better FM modelling is quite astonishing. They've seen what happened with the Su27 community and how its needed to adapt its flying and they've thought..Nah...id rather not modify my learned behaviours. Im not saying the F15 will break the same way. Im sure it wont. But it will have an impact.

 

I think part of it is that (in past threads), the people calling for DM updates came off like they wanted a Flanker DM in the Eagle. I think that's where a lot of the friction started, tbh.

 

If/when the Eagle is updated it'd be great if the OWS got an update too. Dynamic max G indication + audio warning. That would be amazing. Maybe even model the hydraulic systems a bit more so ridiculous G isn't as easy...And that other thing Eagle guys whine about with hydraulics, fix that too. But for overload stuff, the OWS and the stress model are the biggest two things here.

 

Small discussion at F-16.net forum about G limits (for those who have not read)

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10663

 

That was a great read! Thank you!

 

Thank you for your kind words SWEEP.

 

I kinda prefer to try and stay within more realistic limits, but hey; whatever works, works. :smilewink: