Viggen: 3 qs before buying

[Horns]

Hi, I've been through the tutorials and the practice "missions" in the Su-25T, but identifying ground targets continues to be a stumbling block, so I hope to switch to another mod. The Viggen looks great and I'm inclined to get it, but there are three things I'd like to know first:

 

1) Are the tutorials designed to just help an established pilot acclimate to the Viggen, or are they to help a novice pilot learn as well?

 

2) Am I right in assuming there is no permanent on-board gun?

 

3) Can anyone give any idea of whether visually spotting ground targets is easier in the Viggen than the Su-25T? Does the radar usually help to identify ground targets, or does the pilot identify the targets by eye and tell the Viggen where to look?

 

Thanks, all opinions welcome.

[Nealius]

Spotting ground targets is pretty much broken in the entire DCS world. I've known many people (myself included) to resort to using labels. It was much easier when model enlargement worked a few patches ago, but right now it doesn't.

 

That said, the radar will show ground targets, but that will just get you in the vicinity. You will still need your eyes.

[Rudel_chw]

1) Are the tutorials designed to just help an established pilot acclimate to the Viggen, or are they to help a novice pilot learn as well?

 

The tutorials are rather basic ... I learned a lot better from youtube tutorials, for example these are probably the best:

 

 

2) Am I right in assuming there is no permanent on-board gun?

 

Correct, the viggen has no on-board gun.

 

3) Can anyone give any idea of whether visually spotting ground targets is easier in the Viggen than the Su-25T? Does the radar usually help to identify ground targets, or does the pilot identify the targets by eye and tell the Viggen where to look?

 

Visual spotting is about the same ... the radar is used to find ships ... ground targets, not so much. The Viggen is not a plane where you take a walk over the battlefield looking for targets, its a plane to make pre-planned strikes, you follow the waypoints and will find the target if you navigate correctly, then drop your ordinance and get the hell out of there :)

 

You should have made the purchase decision earlier, the 50% sale has ended :(

[Horns]

Spotting ground targets is pretty much broken in the entire DCS world. I've known many people (myself included) to resort to using labels. It was much easier when model enlargement worked a few patches ago, but right now it doesn't.

 

That said, the radar will show ground targets, but that will just get you in the vicinity. You will still need your eyes.

 

The tutorials are rather basic ... I learned a lot better from youtube tutorials, for example these are probably the best:

 

 

 

 

Correct, the viggen has no on-board gun.

 

 

 

Visual spotting is about the same ... the radar is used to find ships ... ground targets, not so much. The Viggen is not a plane where you take a walk over the battlefield looking for targets, its a plane to make pre-planned strikes, you follow the waypoints and will find the target if you navigate correctly, then drop your ordinance and get the hell out of there :)

 

You should have made the purchase decision earlier, the 50% sale has ended :(

 

Thanks to both of you. Nealius, I had feared that the target spotting issues transcended modules. Good to know what I'd be getting into.

 

Rudel_chw, can you say whether it's easier to find your way to targets via waypoints in the Viggen missions than the 25T missions? If you can't that's totally understandable.

[Vatikus]

Rudel_chw, can you say whether it's easier to find your way to targets via waypoints in the Viggen missions than the 25T missions? If you can't that's totally understandable.

it depends on how mission creator or you as a pilot (programming nav via cockpit avionics) set waypoints.

 

using viggen is very similar to vanilla su25 with addition of micro navigation

[tintifaxl]

I do very much advise to use labels for ground objects in 1.5.7. I have them customized, so that they only show a grey dot.

[QuiGon]

1) Are the tutorials designed to just help an established pilot acclimate to the Viggen, or are they to help a novice pilot learn as well?

I usally recommend to read the manual to learn a new module, but the Viggen manual is not the best one. It still explains a lot!

 

2) Am I right in assuming there is no permanent on-board gun?

Yes, there are just gunpods that can be carrierd on the wing stations.

 

3) Can anyone give any idea of whether visually spotting ground targets is easier in the Viggen than the Su-25T? Does the radar usually help to identify ground targets, or does the pilot identify the targets by eye and tell the Viggen where to look?

The pilot eyes are the same in each aircraft. ;)

Having said that, spotting ground targets in the Viggen is less problematic than in the Su-25, because of their respective mission profile. The Su-25 is a CAS-aircraft designed to find and kill enemy ground troops on the battlefield.

The Viggen on the other hand is a strike-aircraft designed to deliver pre-planned point strikes on known enemy targets (often behind the frontline). That's why it is fitted with a nav system that was pretty advanced for its time and enables the Viggen to find and hit the pre-planned targets precisely. The Viggen usally operates at very low level which also makes it easier to spot enemy ground units.

You can see ground units on the radar, but that's not easy, unless they're a bigger group. You can easily spot ships on the radar though.

 

Hope that helps :)

 

 

PS: I would recommend to avoid calling modules "mods", because that's usally the short term for modification, which is something different than a module and can lead to confusion. ;)

[LeCuvier]

Hi, I've been through the tutorials and the practice "missions" in the Su-25T, but identifying ground targets continues to be a stumbling block...

As somebody already said, visual spotting of ground target is challenging in DCS World. You need to get close to your target using nav aids (I use the F10 view a lot), and zoom in to the target area in oder to see trucks etc.

To facilitate the zoom, I have mapped the axis command "View Zoom" for the Viggen to the slider on my TM-WH throttle. On some other aircraft I bind the commands 'Zoom in slow' and 'Zoom out slow' to a 4-way hat on my VPC T-50 stick.

[Flappie]

Important information : It's way easier to spot and lock a target using the Su-25T's Shkval camera, than to do so with the Viggen's EP13 camera. Two main reasons : EP13 camera doesn't zoom at all, and EP13 screen is way too small.

 

That's what I love about the Viggen: even successfully hitting a target with a Maverick is a reward. :P

[Rudel_chw]

Rudel_chw, can you say whether it's easier to find your way to targets via waypoints in the Viggen missions than the 25T missions? If you can't that's totally understandable.

 

Actually, its a bit easier on the Viggen, because the aircraft computer will put a small circle on the HUD over the target's location ...

 

but you do have to do a good job on the navigation, because the Viggen uses a primitive method for determining the aircraft location's on the world, and its prone to drift with time ... so the pilot must perform correction "fixes" along the route.

 

Take a look at the second video of xxjohn's and you will see what i mean :)

[Nealius]

I do very much advise to use labels for ground objects in 1.5.7. I have them customized, so that they only show a grey dot.

 

How did you customize them? I'm finding the full name/range labels to be quite cluttered.

[QuiGon]

Important information : It's way easier to spot and lock a target using the Su-25T's Shkval camera, than to do so with the Viggen's EP13 camera. Two main reasons : EP13 camera doesn't zoom at all, and EP13 screen is way too small.

 

That's what I love about the Viggen: even successfully hitting a target with a Maverick is a reward. :P

 

There is no EP-13 camera. The EP-13 is just a display. The camera is part of the Maverick missile itself. There is no TGP like in the A-10C.

[Horns]

I usally recommend to read the manual to learn a new module, but the Viggen manual is not the best one. It still explains a lot!

 

 

Yes, there are just gunpods that can be carrierd on the wing stations.

 

 

The pilot eyes are the same in each aircraft. ;)

Having said that, spotting ground targets in the Viggen is less problematic than in the Su-25, because of their respective mission profile. The Su-25 is a CAS-aircraft designed to find and kill enemy ground troops on the battlefield.

The Viggen on the other hand is a strike-aircraft designed to deliver pre-planned point strikes on known enemy targets (often behind the frontline). That's why it is fitted with a nav system that was pretty advanced for its time and enables the Viggen to find and hit the pre-planned targets precisely. The Viggen usally operates at very low level which also makes it easier to spot enemy ground units.

You can see ground units on the radar, but that's not easy, unless they're a bigger group. You can easily spot ships on the radar though.

 

Hope that helps :)

 

 

PS: I would recommend to avoid calling modules "mods", because that's usally the short term for modification, which is something different than a module and can lead to confusion. ;)

 

Thanks for all that info QuiGon. I should have phrased my question re ease of sighting targets much better, what I should have asked was "Is it easier to spot targets in the Viggen due to the lower engagement altitude?" Thanks for being able to answer the unasked part of my question!

 

Thanks for the tip about vocabulary too, I should know better than that :doh:

[Horns]

I do very much advise to use labels for ground objects in 1.5.7. I have them customized, so that they only show a grey dot.

 

Small grey dot sounds perfect! I'd love to know how to do that customization if you are prepared to share...

[Rudel_chw]

Small grey dot sounds perfect! I'd love to know how to do that customization if you are prepared to share...

 

 

There is a Mod that sound similar:

 

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/2246533/

 

 

tough I haven't tried it myself.

[kontiuka]

PS: I would recommend to avoid calling modules "mods", because that's usally the short term for modification

or moderator ;)

[Burning Bridges]

They is a folder "Mods" in the game and that's where Modules go.

 

Except if they go into "CoreMods" or one of 10-15 other folders that have been conveived over the years.

[QuiGon]

or moderator ;)

True :D

 

They is a folder "Mods" in the game and that's where Modules go.

 

Except if they go into "CoreMods" or one of 10-15 other folders that have been conveived over the years.

Also true, and problematic, because AFAIK user mods (modifications) usally don't go in this mods folder, which is just confusing. "Modules" would be a better name for that folder.

[philstyle]

Here's my replies to your initial questions. For reference, the Viggen was the first ever "modern" (i.e, equipped with RADAR) jet I have bought and flown in a sim.

 

1) Are the tutorials designed to just help an established pilot acclimate to the Viggen, or are they to help a novice pilot learn as well?

 

I've not used a single one of the in-game tutorials. I've used a combination of YouTube vidoes and squad-mates to get me up to speed with the basics. More recently I've been recording my flights and uploading them to YT and asking for help from folks on reddit etc.. where I am having problems I've found this to be a very fruitful way of getting assistance from more experienced players.

 

2) Am I right in assuming there is no permanent on-board gun?

 

A gun has to be added to one of the pylons. It's quite ungainly to use though. I'm yet to find the "best" position to rig it and the most effettive way to deploy it when needed.

 

3) Can anyone give any idea of whether visually spotting ground targets is easier in the Viggen than the Su-25T? Does the radar usually help to identify ground targets, or does the pilot identify the targets by eye and tell the Viggen where to look?

 

The Viggen is not really suited to going after individual tanks/ trucks etc., esp in DCS. Besides the general problems with target spotting, the Viggen is a "one-pass" aircraft. This means you need to be lined up on your target 15 to 20km out. DCS (without labels) requires you to almost overfly a vehicle at low level in order to ID it. Then you have to conduct a turn and line up to engage. The Viggen is ill-suited for this tactic for two main reasons:

1) It does not like to turn at lower airspeeds, thus presenting an easy target and adding to pilot workload at the critical mission phase, and

2) The key weapons (Rb75 in particular) need to be locked on to the target via the EB13 Camera/Scope. This is very hard to use at short range or over bumpy terrain.

 

I've found that a lot of online/server missions that have the Viggen do not realise this, and we still have missions with a handful of tanks spread out accross 10km Sq areas.. which are very hard to engage in the Viggen.

 

That said, the Viggen works perfectly against larger targets like Ships, Buildings or airfield structures.

 

My preference is (weather permitting) to fly the viggen visually for the most part, ignoring the navigation system. However in poor visibility conditions, it is unmatched as a strike aircraft against large-ish targets - if you emply the navgation aids. For this reason, I wish that server owners/ mission makers were more brave with the weather settings... some thick cloud from 500ft to 5000ft would be perfect Viggen weather!

Edited October 26, 2017 by philstyle

[Tackle]

... what I should have asked was "Is it easier to spot targets in the Viggen due to the lower engagement altitude?"

 

Not at all.

If you want Su-25 like flying but better means to spot, identify and engage targets get the A-10C.

[QuiGon]

Not at all.

If you want Su-25 like flying but better means to spot, identify and engage targets get the A-10C.

 

Yes and no. With the Viggen you fly very low in the weeds which makes it much easier to ID targets as opposed to flying up high. But you're flying fast and usally have only one chance to detect and ID the target before weapon release, so you need to know where your target is beforehand with waypoints guiding you in. You're not circling around the AO searching for enemies to attack like you do in the Su-25 or A-10. That's why I have to agree, that the A-10C might fit the OPs preferences more, because it has a TGP with thermals which makes the task of finding and identifying targets much more convinient.

[Nealius]

The Viggen is for pre-planned strikes on known targets anyway. If you're loitering around looking for targets, you're not using the Viggen correctly.

[Horns]

The Viggen is for pre-planned strikes on known targets anyway. If you're loitering around looking for targets, you're not using the Viggen correctly.

 

Yes and no. With the Viggen you fly very low in the weeds which makes it much easier to ID targets as opposed to flying up high. But you're flying fast and usally have only one chance to detect and ID the target before weapon release, so you need to know where your target is beforehand with waypoints guiding you in. You're not circling around the AO searching for enemies to attack like you do in the Su-25 or A-10. That's why I have to agree, that the A-10C might fit the OPs preferences more, because it has a TGP with thermals which makes the task of finding and identifying targets much more convinient.

 

I was able to work out how to proceed, thanks to both of you.

 

Nealius, I understand what you're saying, that the pilot needs the target location in time to line up a fast run, and since I'll be coming in at low altitude that should give me a chance to get my eyes where I need them to be.

 

QuiGon, I didn't even think about the assistive technology in the warthog! It is about as suited to its role as an a/c can be.

 

I have wound up getting the Viggen, because it seems unique design wise (at least for DCS) being a dedicated A2S with awesome speed. I also like the idea of being given a target location and being able to plot my approach to it myself.

 

That said, it's always possible that I'll be unable to deal with the altitude shift or the lower altitude won't be enough to help me ID targets. So if I find the Viggen is too much...

 

I will go back to the A-10C. I remember having the bhot and whot on the MFCDs. The whole a/c was built for quick target ID and engagement, which means it's designed to do exactly what I was asking. The lower airspeed of the hog could be helpful too. Best of all I already own it! Now, just to deal with that 700 page manual lol