What's your opinion of the Harrier?

[Atooyi]

nice plane indeed, plenty of bugs and incomplete systems, which obviously are usuall for EA and can't really nag about it. after all, really happy about it.

Ditto to all the positive comments. Great module, will only get better! Now if only a plane had the VSTOL and speed capabilities of the harrier combined with the loitering and weapon capacity of the A-10!... What? Asking for too much? Haha!

Many people expect planes to have the loadout of b-52 combined with the speed of f-18, maneuverability of f-16, plus range of f-15E and loiter time of a-10 all combined together so your expectations are not that much :joystick::joystick:

[DartzIRL]

 

For the first time I face an aircraft with no tutorials, no Chuck's guides and without getting to the youtube how-toos.

It's actually one of the easiest aircraft to get going once you realise it needs Battery, Generator, Fuel, Engine Start, then punch switches until the caution lights go out.

It's also stupidly easy to leand because if you're sinking too fast - or coming in too quick, just use the nozzles to slow down or boost your glide.

Can't hover worth shit with an xbox controller mind, but I can fly this better than any other aircraft.

Also, High G turns at full throttle and the nozzles set to 90 degrees. I'd imagine it'd surprise anyone looking for an easy kill. A better than 1:1 thrust ratio is a glorious thing

[mackan072]

I didn't really think I would like the harrier as much as I did.

 

I'm not very good at DCS. I don't really have the time nor patience to on my free time sit down and properly read through manuals, and I tend to change Aircraft quite frequently instead of properly learning one before switching to another module.

 

When I play DCS, especially with the proper, more complex modules I tend to mainly fly around, navigate through a path of waypoints and every now and then try and employ the weapons on a not too frightening target. Doing exactly this in the Harrier, it's incredible. The plane flies like a dream. The vectoring of the nozzles make it very different from the other modules, giving it characteristics like no other plane in the game has. The aircraft is nowhere near as complex and punishing as I expected and I can honestly say that I am having a blast learning this Aircraft.

 

My favorite aircraft thus far has been the AJS-37 Viggen, but with some more time, spit and polish from RAZBAM, I do not see why their AV-8B would not be a possible replacement of my long loved Viggen.

[jeffdude]

Thanks for the replies guys. Module is purchased! :) Only had time for a couple of minutes of free flight yet, but so far it looks and feels awesome! The flight model is exactly the kind I like, some inertia and good sense of actually flying. Can't wait until I can try it in VR!

 

Wow. I haven't even had the chance to tell you how awesome it is :clap:

you bought it after two pages! Congrats on the module!

[imacken]

Sorry to ask again, but can someone confirm whether there are training missions or not? In the DCS shop blurb it says there are.

[DartzIRL]

Sorry to ask again, but can someone confirm whether there are training missions or not? In the DCS shop blurb it says there are.

 

Doesn't seem like they're ready yet. But they will come.

 

It's not actually that hard an aircraft to get going from cold and dark, mind. Some steps don't exist yet - like waiting on the INS - but of all the modules i've played it's so far been the easiest to play 'guess the button'.

[Knock-Knock]

Just curious, what were some of your "ignorant ideas and opinions"?

 

 

Nothing special really, just uninformed stuff, based on limited knowledge. Had this idea that due to the VTOL, it would compromise too much, and be a slow jet, in all ways - handling, acceleration, response etc., and be filled with really old tech/systems. Just generally I didnt think it would offer anything that would appeal to me.

But then I went sniffing on the net, videos, those manuals posted, and it slowly dawned on me, that this is actually one hell of a capable airframe.

 

And now that I have my hands on a simulated version, Im in love with it. Such a joy to fly, and its a swift little bugger :). Cant wait for its systems become fully operational.

[imacken]

It all sounds great, but $70? Where is it going to end? How long before we're paying $100 for a module?

I do worry about the price creep.

[mmaclauchlan]

Macken, perhaps a little perspective will help but I know different people will have different opinions. I’ve spent $50-60 on games I played for a few months and got all I could out of them. When it comes to DCS, I use these planes for years and years. For the work that goes into these modules and what we get out of them (study-level sims that provide years of enioyment), $70 is perfectly reasonable.

[stalhuth]

It all sounds great, but $70? Where is it going to end? How long before we're paying $100 for a module?

I do worry about the price creep.

 

F18 for sure

[imacken]

Macken, perhaps a little perspective will help but I know different people will have different opinions. I’ve spent $50-60 on games I played for a few months and got all I could out of them. When it comes to DCS, I use these planes for years and years. For the work that goes into these modules and what we get out of them (study-level sims that provide years of enioyment), $70 is perfectly reasonable.

It's imacken, but anyway, of course it's all a matter of opinion. I'm not saying whether it's good value or not, but there has to be a limit. I'm sure there is an argument for keeping the price lower, with many more sales at a lesser price.

Personally, if this had been $50 I would have bought it by now, but I have resisted it at $70, and probably will continue to do so.

Not everyone gets years and years out of each module in DCS. Again, personally, I have bought quite a few aircraft, both the maps and some other stuff, but to say I have exhausted each aircraft to its maximum potential would be wrong.

Personally, I like getting to know each one to a certain level, and pick them up again from time to time. I also play other games. My life is not totally hooked on DCS. (Not totally!)

I just worry that there will come a price point that means only the few die-hards will be prepared to pay, thus making the whole development of further modules less attractive.

I mean, I would imagine that your average Steam user isn't prepared to invest $100 every other few months on DCS. How much of DCS sales come from Steam? I have no idea.

Anyway, I am not doubting that the work going into these projects is phenomenal, and I really hope that the economic model means we will get many more over the coming years, but I really do worry that there is a limit to how much the 'average' DCS user is prepared to pay.

I hope I'm wrong!

[Fri13]

I'm thinking of getting the Harrier and I wonder what you guys think of it so far? I only have time to play two modules at the same time, and right now it's the Viggen and the Mirage. I'm thinking of replacing the Mirage with the Harrier, partly because it's a cooler aircraft, and also because I think DCS in its current form is better suited to ground attack. So what is your opinion?

 

IMHO current stage (1.5.8 and 2.1) DCS is far more suited for air-to-air than air-to-ground combat. But the majority of the aircrafts we have are Air-to-Ground capable or designed for it, like a KA-50, Mi-8, A-10A and C, Su-25 A and T, Gazelle (with all except Mistrall Air-to-Air model) and now Harrier, up coming Mi-24 and AH-1W.

 

And that is IMHO unfortunate as we have unrealistic ground combat where:

1) Ground units doesn't have cover against missiles and bombs, or concealment against FLIR spotting

2) Ground units are lacking proper self air-defense because AI limitations to have realistic firing

3) Ground units AI doesn't have intelligence but are seriously requiring mission designer to do heavy lifting for even basic procedures like preparing air attack by driving to concealment and cover once spotting a aircraft (enemy or friendly) while on route and unloading troops to give a proper cover.

4) SAM systems capable for "silent strike" guiding SARH missiles and IR missiles to air targets without them knowing them until last second or two when the guidance radar is locked for a kill etc.

5) Sensors in aircrafts has too high resolution, too accurate, too easy to spot targets (especially FLIR) etc.

 

That list is longer, but same problems are in the air as well, where we don't have even basic radar simulation, spotting, AI aerial maneuvering tactics etc. And that doesn't even include more complex missile systems guidances and locking procedures, electronic warfare etc.

 

But all that lacking, DCS is still great for learning procedure (how to operate the systems and prepare for given task). And in that a Harrier II is a great one.

 

IMHO the harrier is like a half of the Su-25T by its simple flight and combat operations at this moment (before TGP comes) as you just fly to general direction of the area, slewe the sensor to area and start shooting or drop bombs. It is just lacking the armor from Su-25 so you don't take hits and survive.

 

It is partially like a Viggen as you can really do a FOB sorties easily. Far more easily really. As Viggen was designed for anti-ship purposes and has secondary ground strike capability, but Harrier is more like opposite, primary for ground and secondary for sea (with mavericks on current version, the AV-8B+ model would add Harpoon for anti-ship). It is really fun to be able fly slow and observe the ground, so you are even in better position than A-10 in that regard. And once we get TGP it comes nicer to operate the sensor as you can see sideways and rear unlike with now just forward.

 

The SEAD capability is there, but more like a short range operations as the range ain't so great, but that is why you fly low and in cover and pop and shoot and get away. So similar to Viggen in that regard, so Su-25T will stay in its own class until F/A-18 comes out.

 

You can do some dogfighting but same way really as in Su-25. But where Su-25 needs to drop ordinance to get speed and maneuverability, you can use your nozzles to gain tighter turn radius to get your IR missile fired.

 

One of the great things that many doesn't mention is that harrier pilot can use DMT/ARBS is to use it to lock on the air targets for identification and to get a gun solution. So Harrier is like tiny version of the F-14 Tomcat capable to do a visual ID from a few kilometer distance (just like a Su-25T or KA-50 can do that) but for some reason the ARBS in Harrier II now can't lock on aerial target as it should.

 

 

That target was about 5.5km (3nm) when started to do the turn.

 

 

So that would be a really useful in multiplayer games (or single player) to find, and identify a chased target for IFF. But we seem not to have yet the gunsight or ARBS capabilities to help in aerial combat. As well the capability to see in a HUD the hotspots in front hemisphere should help too, but I am not sure does AV-8B II have it, but GR7 does. (https://youtu.be/Q8bmk4yZAJI?t=167)

 

The harrier is a very capable and easy to operate aircraft and fun to fly. If you don't want to fly fast or high, you can do lots of fun things with it as a CAS pilot. The DMT system really makes it unique and more fun IMHO than A-10C, that is more a "fly a computer" than fly a aircraft. And this makes the Harrier II so nice as it is so close to Su-25T operational use, but with a more features like that automatic laser tracker, switch to TV mode after locking to laser and just start attack. Then the general area memory mode is really really cool thing, that I could think that Su-25T should have too. As after you turn away from the target to extend and turn back to the general direction, the DMT locks back to the position and you can so easily just re-target or observe the area.

 

Yes the TGP has the advantage by allowing to see when flying away or sideways, but in most cases that ain't required. You fly low behind cover, pop-up for a strike and complete the attack and get back to low level. Do that couple times and then return to FOB and you can even repeat the same thing :D

 

Once the map feature comes in and we can use it to navigate easily etc, the Harrier II will become even more capable and fun to fly. And this is something that every A-10C or Mirage pilot should be aware that how dangerously effective and fun to fly the Harrier is. Sure it doesn't have the speed that Mirage has or the INS bombing capability. Sure it doesn't have the loiter time and carry capacity the A-10C has. But it is faster than A-10C so you get easily in and out the dangerous places and it has more advanced strike capabilities than Mirage so you get the job done better.

 

Totally can't be not recommending Harrier II, as it just has something very unique and that ain't even the VTOL capability to do sorties from FOB.

As well the Harrier II is at this moment maybe the best cockpit for VR use. Something about its clarity in cockpit (while difficult to read the fonts in MFCD) otherwise that other modules lacks. The HUD is just beautiful to look and you totally forget that you are using VR when you look that HUD, it is so clear and nice.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Fri13

[Fri13]

I really hope that the economic model means we will get many more over the coming years, but I really do worry that there is a limit to how much the 'average' DCS user is prepared to pay.

I hope I'm wrong!

 

It is true that price of $70 sounds stupid. But I must as well agree that with such a price the module will deliver back more even.

As in my thinking, the full fidelity modules like a KA-50, A-10C, Mirage 2000 and such are just cheap. But then again in other modules like a L-39 trainer I think it is overprice what they ask for it now, as it is a trainer. Yes, beautifully done etc, but it is a trainer. Trainer in simulator is in my humble opinion just wrong. As we can crash as many times we want and reset the plane to position as many times etc. So the real benefit would be to be able fly with a friend who is just learning to fly and teach things. But for that reason the front seat for "student" should be a free so the new customer doesn't need to buy a trainer and then a full fidelity module, but it is just better for them jump to full fidelity module and start training there. And that way the trainer price fights against its purpose to exist (other than if someone really fly L-39 and want to do training for it for real life).

 

 

The prices for a individual so capable modules is justified IMHO. As DCS shouldn't be about "base game + DLC as every module for "skins". If we look a general PC game market, it is full of 60€ games that then soon receive a about 20-30€ DLC package or so. Some space simulators are far more expensive than that, some big ones has a monthly fee.

 

So many ways DCS module pricing is very good, as no one is required to buy them all just to get "virtual hangar" full.

I would even be ready to pay to update some modules like KA-50 with a refreshed cockpit and implement the missing functions (no function/not implemented labeled ones) as really finish the module (missing A/A mode, pre-fragmented sleeve for Vikhr etc).

And I like to buy later the maps when someone starts to release them (aren't we suppose to get now a 5 new maps?).

 

I was on the edge with the Harrier too, as I dislike the western avionics and philosophy. But bite the bullet as did more research for it as didn't know so much about Harrier than I liked.

 

And IMHO the Harrier is great example how a 3rd party developer can select a aircraft that ain't overhyped all over (like F-15, F-16 and F-18) and still deliver unique and very capable aircraft for simulator fans.

 

I can see that Harrier is more fitting to DCS than example even Gazelle or Mirage are. Main reasons are really that the multiplayer is somewhat so flawed in DCS by virtual pilots attitude to fly as the DCS doesn't support more realistic combat requirements and limitations so the "Air Quake" is very common thing. And that is something the Harrier avoids, just like the Su-25T, so it is "refreshing" by that.

 

If for something, I really would comply the others opinion that DCS really requires a dynamic compaign capability, as it would make every module more valuable.

[AMEDooley]

The price was raised also due to the Tarwa and the KC-130. So an extra ten bucks for two more assets is perfectly okay.

[Sephyrius]

Quite happy with the module so far, it satiates my rotorhead craving with its VTOL capabilities , has a good mix of an interesting flight model, complex enough to be useful yet simple enough that you're not managing a computer for the entire flight, and packs enough to at least stand a chance in air engagements.

 

Not happy about the price tag though, wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't for the pre-sale (maybe that's what they were hoping?). I don't see Heatblur charging an extra $10 for the Viggen just because it's going to include a Baltic map (!), and now they're making a Draken AI plane for free as well.

[ESAc_matador]

You can do some dogfighting but same way really as in Su-25.

 

If we take into account the tales of Shrkey ward (ok, it was the Seaharrier) and the kill ratio (we are talking about 20-0) the Av8 when in its terrain could be a terrific dogfighter... (not an F16, F18 or Su27...) but... it can give you an unpleaasant time if it gets into your guts.

 

So it seems to me that the AV8 is more than a single ground pounder... Ok, you dont have radar... but you have the good old MkI EYEBALLS and GCI...

 

You could easyly make a campaign with your sqadron mates with teh Av8 doing AA rol... against Viggens, Mig21s, F5s, or even Mirage and Mig29 (having difficult time, but it is more than possible)

[tusler]

I really like the Helo's but the Harrier is by far the most fun fixed wing for me. I am able to lauch Mavs, Drop bombs and do some SEAD with the sidearms. The other fixed wings I have found to be so complex I never got as far as I have with the Harrier. Definitely Worth a Buy!

[Fri13]

If we take into account the tales of Shrkey ward (ok, it was the Seaharrier) and the kill ratio (we are talking about 20-0) the Av8 when in its terrain could be a terrific dogfighter... (not an F16, F18 or Su27...) but... it can give you an unpleaasant time if it gets into your guts.

 

So it seems to me that the AV8 is more than a single ground pounder... Ok, you dont have radar... but you have the good old MkI EYEBALLS and GCI...

 

You could easyly make a campaign with your sqadron mates with teh Av8 doing AA rol... against Viggens, Mig21s, F5s, or even Mirage and Mig29 (having difficult time, but it is more than possible)

 

As the air forces (don't now remember was it USMC or RAF) had flight squadrons matched so that 1/3 were "ground pounders" and 2/3 were "plus" variants with radar, the idea was to match the flights with both. One with bombs and simple AIM-9, while others were with for coverage and capable to engage air threats with longer spear and capable to deliver then laser guided bombs by itself or laze to the "ground pounders".

 

So having both makes the aircraft very capable as you field one frame, service one frame and you operate one frame. Both gets on the ground or to base etc.

[Capn kamikaze]

As the air forces (don't now remember was it USMC or RAF) had flight squadrons matched so that 1/3 were "ground pounders" and 2/3 were "plus" variants with radar, the idea was to match the flights with both. One with bombs and simple AIM-9, while others were with for coverage and capable to engage air threats with longer spear and capable to deliver then laser guided bombs by itself or laze to the "ground pounders".

 

So having both makes the aircraft very capable as you field one frame, service one frame and you operate one frame. Both gets on the ground or to base etc.

 

That would not have been the RAF, none of the RAF Harriers ever had radar, the RN did with the FRS1 and FA2, the FA2 could have done what you describe, since it had the AIM-120.

[Robert31178]

Three words: I love it!

 

Finally got my first flight in it two days ago (work...ugh), my unit CO ran me through a few start ups and talked me through an easy section take off. I flew his wing out to the boat for my first landing and plopped it down on deck with minimal instruction through the approach and none for the touchdown - I have been flying Huey nonstop since November of last year and apparently that's worked out nicely for me by teaching me, through repetition, how not to ham hand my controls. Made a nice take off from Tarawa and headed back to the airfield for a full stop and taxi there.....

 

I was surprised at how easy this little plane was for me to fly. I was very intimidated from watching videos, but it turned out to be an absolute joy, I was very confident in my abilities to safely handle the plane after a very short time. I didn't have the time to put into learning any weaps yet, but next time home I will be doing so.

 

As for the dogfighting: pick up a copy of " Roger Ball"; when you get to the chapter where Cdr Smith is helping the USMC test the Harrier by mock dogfighting it in a Tomcat be ready to have your mind warped. Smith says that he had trouble getting it to shoot out in front during scissors maneuvers, it could turn with him and maintain energy at lower speeds, and when he took it upstairs he was shocked to see it stay right with him - huge turbofan and a great thrust to weight ratio made it quite an ACM bird. He said he tried every trick he knew and the well flown Harrier stayed right with him for all but his last maneuver which was another huge energy manuever that also capitalized in the drag created by Harrier's gaping intake. Overall he thought It had great acceleration and was, in his opinion, a hell of a dogfighter.

 

RAZBAM, looks like this one's up against the fence......stiill going.....this baby's outta here!!!! Homerun guys, really, a super nice plane!!! Thank you so much for the hard work! I haven't bought the M2000 and so I didn't know anything about the quality of your modules aside from what I read and hear, but this sure makes my tail wag furiously with thoughts of SLUF and CH-53's knowing now first hand how hard you work to bring us modules of this quality!!!

 

~Rob

[some1]

As for the dogfighting: pick up a copy of " Roger Ball"; when you get to the chapter where Cdr Smith is helping the USMC test the Harrier by mock dogfighting it in a Tomcat be ready to have your mind warped. Smith says that he had trouble getting it to shoot out in front during scissors maneuvers, it could turn with him and maintain energy at lower speeds, and when he took it upstairs he was shocked to see it stay right with him - huge turbofan and a great thrust to weight ratio made it quite an ACM bird. He said he tried every trick he knew and the well flown Harrier stayed right with him for all but his last maneuver which was another huge energy manuever that also capitalized in the drag created by Harrier's gaping intake. Overall he thought It had great acceleration and was, in his opinion, a hell of a dogfighter.

 

He was in Phantom, not a Tomcat, so basically the worst choice for ACM fight. He was also used to fighting against A-4's, agile jets but without thrust-to-weight of AV-8. Anyway, as he stopped trying to outmaneuver the Harrier and used the speed advantage, it was an end game for the little fella.

[winchesterdelta1]

This harrier is more fun then i ever imagined. I only flown one other aircraft twice since it came out. These are the planes i'm waiting for. Fast, agile, modern and strike capability's. I'm very glad i bought it.

[Raz_Specter]

one word: OUTSTANDING :)

[Kayos]

;3313781']So far its the best module to be released in to DCS, despite it not being fully functional yet and in early access!

 

Its great fun to fly and operate, every task is more challenging than a regular fixed wing aircraft but in a good way!

 

Landing on the boat is an adrenaline rush that takes a lot of concentration and is extremely rewarding when you get it right.

 

I can't enough good things about it, I'm totally besotted with the aircraft and highly recommend it to anyone who has an interest in Air to Ground military jets!

 

Its worth every penny it costs!

 

Agreed 100%

[Nealius]

I have to agree. I used to get my challenge fix with helos, but between the challenge parts of T/O, landing, and hover, actual flight was very dull.

 

With the harrier you've got the challenge of T/O, landing, hover, and you get to zoom around at 500kts and blow stuff up.