MK-20 vs CBU-99 and Tank Busting

[Wallace_Actual]

Can someone explain the difference in the two cluster bombs and which, if any, are good for tank busting?

[bradleyjs]

Excerpt from Wikipedia - The CBU-100 Cluster Bomb is an American cluster bomb which is employed primarily in an anti-tank mode. It weighs 490 pounds ... The Mk 20, CBU-99, and CBU-100 are used against armored vehicles.

[ouPhrontis]

I doubt cluster munitions will bother a tank at all, warheads and projectiles too small, that is in DCS, in real life though; it might prove irksome via a combination of psychological warfare and very bothersome if one needed to get out and fix anything, especially a cup of tea.

[Capn kamikaze]

I doubt cluster munitions will bother a tank at all, warheads and projectiles too small, that is in DCS, in real life though; it might prove irksome via a combination of psychological warfare and very bothersome if one needed to get out and fix anything, especially a cup of tea.

 

It could I suppose damage sensors and light mounted weapons on a tank, if it did damage sensors that could render the tank useless even if it's otherwise intact.

[ouPhrontis]

It'd be nice to have that kind of granular detail modelled. I think some aspects of what we're talking about are being looked at, the old flight models need refining to incorporate the human-element for example.

[ruprecht]

I doubt cluster munitions will bother a tank at all, warheads and projectiles too small, that is in DCS, in real life though; it might prove irksome

 

The CBU-100 bomblet shaped charge penetrates ~ 7.5in of armour. It's designed as an anti-armour weapon.

[WarriorX]

It's been a while, but I will give it a try.

The MK20 aka "Rockeye" is a standard cluster munition for light armor and some older tanks

 

From the DCS A-10C Manual:

CBU-105

The CBU-105 is the Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) tail kit version of the CBU-97. Using Inertial Navigation System (INS) guidance, the CBU-105 can be dropped at much higher altitudes than the CBU-97 and guide to the targeted location (SPI).

 

 

Post edited because I was incorrect about the 99. I was confusing it with the 105. Apologies.

Edited June 8, 2018 by WarriorX
My mistake

[backspace340]

In-game right now, both are equally lackluster - you'll be lucky to kill a truck that takes a direct hit in the middle of the cloud of munition explosions. They're meant to be a lot more effective than they are, we can only hope for improvements. I've tried to work out the difference between the Mk. 20 and CBU-99 but the internet does not provide much insight - I *think* that the CBU-99 is a more modern version of the Mk. 20 (both are called the Rockeye and both seem to work identically in game).

[bradleyjs]

Not to mention that cluster munitions have banned.

 

“The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer, and stockpiling of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area. ... As of March 2018, 108 states have signed the treaty and 103 have ratified it or acceded to it.”

 

But WTF who cares? This is a sim!

[QuiGon]

Not to mention that cluster munitions have banned.

 

“The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer, and stockpiling of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area. ... As of March 2018, 108 states have signed the treaty and 103 have ratified it or acceded to it.”

 

But WTF who cares? This is a sim!

Not all countries have signed that convention. The USA and Russia for example have not signed it and continue to use such munitions. So why should cluster munitions not be available for these sides in the sim if they are IRL?

Edited June 8, 2018 by QuiGon

[firmek]

...But WTF who cares? This is a sim!

???

 

During gulf war Mk-20 was a favorite weapon of US Marines. They dropped around 16000 of Mk-20's which accounted for almost 60% of all Mk-20 dropped by all of US air forces. The plane used to deploy the weapon was obviously Harrier which we have in DCS.

 

For some reason the yt time stamp does not work. At 28:30 mark:

[Capn kamikaze]

I've never really understood what the problem with cluster bombs is, if you're using them against civilians that's not really the bomb that's the problem, that's another issue entirely.

 

If it's that you may have unexploded ones, again, that happens with other bombs too, so what's the difference?

[firmek]

I've never really understood what the problem with cluster bombs is, if you're using them against civilians that's not really the bomb that's the problem, that's another issue entirely.

 

If it's that you may have unexploded ones, again, that happens with other bombs too, so what's the difference?

A bomb is potentially one unexploaded bomb. A single cluster bomb is potentially houndrets of unexploaded bomblets. Some of cluster bombs were actually designed to leave the unexploaded charges if the submunition would not find an target. This was common for the anti airfield weapons which goal was not only to destroy the infrastructure but additionally mine it, making repairs much more difficult and lengty. On top of that the sub-munision had a much hihger miss-fire rate than the standard bombs.

 

Generally cluster bombs create a big humanitarian problem as they leave many active, unexploaded charges killing or disabling civilians many years after the conflict.

Edited June 8, 2018 by firmek

[DZShizzam]

Not to mention that cluster munitions have banned.

 

“The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer, and stockpiling of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area. ... As of March 2018, 108 states have signed the treaty and 103 have ratified it or acceded to it.”

 

But WTF who cares? This is a sim!

 

No international body has "banned" cluster munitions. This is an opt-in pact to voluntarily not use cluster munitions that the US has not opted into.

[probad]

seems to me they're the same exact thing, just navy vs airforce designations

[Hog_No32]

No international body has "banned" cluster munitions. This is an opt-in pact to voluntarily not use cluster munitions that the US has not opted into.

 

You may want to re-read. Nobody said it was an international „body“. The poster correctly stated that there is an international treaty.

 

Someone who wants to learn the difference between an unexploded Mk83 and a (partly) unexploded Mk20, just talk to a girl who lost her hands because she thought what a strange soda can is laying around there. She probably wouldn‘t have toyed around with that 1‘000 pound thingy...

[Capn kamikaze]

A bomb is potentially one unexploaded bomb. A single cluster bomb is potentially houndrets of unexploaded bomblets. Some of cluster bombs were actually designed to leave the unexploaded charges if the submunition would not find an target. This was common for the anti airfield weapons which goal was not only to destroy the infrastructure but additionally mine it, making repairs much more difficult and lengty. On top of that the sub-munision had a much hihger miss-fire rate than the standard bombs.

 

Generally cluster bombs create a big humanitarian problem as they leave many active, unexploaded charges killing or disabling civilians many years after the conflict.

 

Which isn't relevant to civilians, if they're stupid enough to go wandering about on an airbase that's been bombed....

 

Also modern CBU bomblets are designed to automatically detonate after a set delay so that they don't remain a threat.

 

It only seems to be an issue with old ones that are deliberately used against civilians that's the problem, kind of like the argument it's not the gun that kills but the gun nut wielding it.

[Frederf]

The CEM (CBU-87) had an unacceptable UXO rate leading to a significant humanitarian problem. Even the newer SFW despite being better have a higher UXO rate than the marketing materials would suggest, even failing in a non-inert state. It was supposed to have a <1% rate but recent demonstrated use in Saudi Arabia suggests higher.

 

The difference among MK20, CBU-99, CBU-100 is the dispensers which are very similar. The dispensers are MK7, SUU-75, SUU-76 respectively. All contain the same 247 MK118 Mod 0 bomblets. The later edition Mark 20s have the Mark 118 Mod 1 bomblets which have a different fuze (Mark 1 Mod 1 replacing Mark 1 Mod 0).

 

The MK20 comes with the Mk 339 Mod 1 timed fuze while the CBU-99/100 have variants including FMU-140 radio proximity fuze. The FMU-140 may also be used on some MK7 dispensers (i.e. MK20 weapons).

 

Basically they're all the same from a pilot's perspective.

 

They will absolutely kill armor but bomblet density is very important to achieve a hit-to-kill. One can do the math for density but it doesn't take a very large footprint to render hit chance against a 600 sq.ft. tank very bad. Example: 600 sq.ft. x 247 bombs covers an area of a 218' radius circle with one bomb per 600 sq.ft. And so employment while "area" is against a single tank in most cases. Heights of function should be very low, 300-700' typical. It's a shotgun instead of a rifle bullet but you're still only going to kill one duck.

[jojo]

Which isn't relevant to civilians, if they're stupid enough to go wandering about on an airbase that's been bombed....

 

Also modern CBU bomblets are designed to automatically detonate after a set delay so that they don't remain a threat.

 

It only seems to be an issue with old ones that are deliberately used against civilians that's the problem, kind of like the argument it's not the gun that kills but the gun nut wielding it.

 

 

Yes, because war only happens within airbase's perimeter as everyone knows !

 

 

 

We are speaking of the real word, where sh... happens. This kind of bombs can be released in the vicinity of a town or village.

 

And kids being kids, days, weeks, months, years later...they grab or kick anything they find.

 

 

That's the CBU problem. And indeed, some country didn't signed the treaty and are still using it.

Finally it's true, we don't need to care about collateral damages in DCS World context. So lets be careful to not confuse a video game and real life problem.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by jojo

[The M]

Don´t forget the fact the the food aid the amercans dropped hat the same colour as some cluster munitions.

[firmek]

Which isn't relevant to civilians' date=' if they're stupid enough to go wandering about on an airbase that's been bombed....[/quote']

Yes, since the bombs are only dropped on closed, guarded areas where there are no civilians during the conflict and where its guaranteed they'll not venture after the war. Sure...

Even assuming a "pink glasses" vision, the unexploded bomblets will remain for years after the conflict, waiting for someone to activate it. By accident or not, doesn't matter, the effect will be the same - a tragic one.

 

I'm not sure where you leave but here in Europe we still quite often hear about a WW2 unexploaded bombs being found. Be it just laying more or less on the ground in a forest or dug out during a construction ground work. And that is 70 years after they had been dropped.

Again a cluster bomb drops horehounds of bomblets that spread over a wide area. It's impossible for the sappers to find and disarm all.

 

Also modern CBU bomblets are designed to automatically detonate after a set delay so that they don't remain a threat.

 

It only seems to be an issue with old ones that are deliberately used against civilians that's the problem, kind of like the argument it's not the gun that kills but the gun nut wielding it.

They are designed but I think is not questionable that no-one can guarantee they will. All devices especially a bombs which are designed to be mass produced with a lowest cost will miss-function. The rest is a simple probability theory math - 1 CBU = hundreds of bomblets = hundreds times higher chance of an uploaded device than a single iron bomb.

 

Anyway, we're just theorizing on something that is well documented real problem (unfortunately).

Edited June 9, 2018 by firmek

[kylekatarn720]

if they're stupid enough to go wandering about on an airbase that's been bombed....

 

Wow, what a cruel man you are. if your 4-5 year old son or daughter loses half of his/her tiny body by a bomb thats been dropped 50 years ago in a war that child couldnt possibly know anything about,

I beg you please engrave that quote on their grave stone to remind people of your impeccable logic.

[QuiGon]

I've never really understood what the problem with cluster bombs is' date=' if you're using them against civilians that's not really the bomb that's the problem, that's another issue entirely.[/quote']

You know, cluster bombs, especially the ones that are made for anti tank use, are often beeing dropped outside of airbases, because tanks and other combat units usally don't stay inside airfield perimeters. They move through the open ground and that is where they get attacked and where UXOs occur.

 

Even here in germany where we have lots of experienced and busy EOD experts, there are still entire forests that are restricted because of UXOs from WW2 and they used non-cluster-bombs back then. Now imagine they used cluster munitions which would increase the amount of UXOs by insane numbers.

[Sniper175]

LOL who cares, you arm chair folks trying to be all morale about a weapon system that is designed to kill. Yet your flying what simulator with a passion........:doh:

[QuiGon]

LOL who cares, you arm chair folks trying to be all morale about a weapon system that is designed to kill. Yet your flying what simulator with a passion........:doh:

So if I play an ego shooter I have to like killing people IRL as well? :huh: