Mirage III or IAI Dagger Poll

[Auditor]

So I'm seeing that the decision for a lot of people hinges greatly on which variant we're getting.

 

Can we get a statement fro Razbam about which one they're planning for the purposes of this poll? At least confirm if older statements about the CJ are accurate?

[jojyrocks]

Whatever the case. I see that the Mirage 3 has the lead. Hoping it is the Mirage 3EA. Much better than Mirage 3CJ...it would be a step up. More modern the better...right?

 

 

Yes, the Argentinian air force used it.

[Auditor]

While I agree, and still stand by my statement that the III has more use in other scenarios, I would still like to know what exactly we're getting into.

[Tirak]

Just a note, the votes on the website are going to be disregarded.

 

A MASSIVE Mirage III fan decided to rig the website poll

(got to praise the enthusiasm) :megalol:

 

 

The results are now going to be from here and the Razbam facebook page :)

 

 

I think in order to send a message the Mirage III should be disqualified and efforts focused on the Dagger.

[SuperEtendard]

I found out to my dismay that the IAI Neshers that were sold to Argentina (IAI Daggers) did not have any RWR nor countermeasures

 

The Argentine version of the Mirage IIIE (EA) didn't have RWR nor countermeasures either, btw. IIRC the only plane with that capability in the Arg side was the Super Etendard.

 

Appart from the R.530 the EA also used Magic Is, the Dagger/M-IIICJ would use Shafrir 2s. How do these missiles compare to each other? Only thing I know is both are rear aspect, but I don't know which one is better.

[Baco]

Wasn't the Dagger a modified Mirage V, whereas the Finger (the upgraded Dagger) the ~Kfir C.2 standard?

 

yes, the Finger an israely Dagger that incorporated an israel-argentina upgrade to replace the upgrade that was dropped after the conflict. Its named finger becouse of the middle one, because it incorporated the same (and actually better capabilities) as the original anglo-french upgrade would have given our Dagers, as per contract on 1981.

 

The Finger is basicly a Dagger with an altitude radar + navigation and targeting avionics giving ccip and ccrp hud simbology and delivery modes, as well as INS navigation to the venerable Dagger. adding in 2004 GPS to the NAv systems, Coming realy close to the Kfir C2 capabilities.

[Vilab]

in the (French ) Mirage III E manual shared there by al531246, 2 different kind of RWR are described on pages PL-39 and PL-54 of "Manuel d'utilisation Mirage III E", PL-54 is from 1969

 

so, is the EA a downgrade ?

 

( on pictures of III E, there are antennas similar to F1's RWR antenna that are not on picture of III EA )

 

PS : does anybody know what is the little thing hunging on the left side of the EA cockpit next to the HUD ? ( EA cockpit picture posted page 5 of this topic by Jojo )

Edited September 5, 2018 by Vilab

[Nexus-6]

Mirage III please

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Prowler111]

You have to keep in mind this is in the 1982 conflict context, and also, most definitely, is not around the corner, the reason for this poll is since we are starting to schedule all this HUGE task, we wanted to know what you all think, i can hardly see us making both versions, at least not in a row or even worse in the mid term, sorry but it is how it is....

[SuperEtendard]

in the (French ) Mirage III E manual shared there by al531246, 2 different kind of RWR are described on pages PL-39 and PL-54 of "Manuel d'utilisation Mirage III E", PL-54 is from 1969

 

so, is the EA a downgrade ?

 

( on pictures of III E, there are antennas similar to F1's RWR antenna that are not on picture of III EA )

 

PS : does anybody know what is the little thing hunging on the left side of the EA cockpit next to the HUD ? ( EA cockpit picture posted page 5 of this topic by Jojo )

 

Afaik the EA didn't have RWR because it was intended as a pure interceptor guided by ground control radar operators, RWR wasn't considered needed for the Argentine Air Force in that context, the equipment was available for export, but they chose not to have it in the planes.

[astazou]

Finally, the most adapted version for every map of DCS seems to be the Mirage III E.

 

Mirage III E vs Mig21Bis

Mirage III E vs SeaHarrier

 

I'm already hyped!

 

The Fighter Collection's logo is a sioux, it is also logo of the 2/4 "La Fayette" squadron and they flown the Mirage III E :D

 

Source : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Dassault_Mirage_IIIE,_France_-_Air_Force_AN0992996.jpg

[Nexus-6]

You have to keep in mind this is in the 1982 conflict context, and also, most definitely, is not around the corner, the reason for this poll is since we are starting to schedule all this HUGE task, we wanted to know what you all think, i can hardly see us making both versions, at least not in a row or even worse in the mid term, sorry but it is how it is....

Well, I'm hoping that someone develops a MiG-17 someday.

[astazou]

I've got a MIIIB panel, I can share some detailed pictures to Razbam if needed

 

 

 

I also have a stick

[Zius]

In fact export Mirage III E have a flush Doppler radar under the nose, contrary to the French Mirage III E which has the bulge.

 

 

The III EZ also has the bulge, apparently:

 

 

http://www.saairforce.co.za/gallery-and-media/82/mirage-iiiez#

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, my personal vote is Mirage III.

 

 

If I could specify further III E, because:

- It's widely exported and used in a number of scenario's by a number of countries. People now seem to focus on a Falkland theather, but an Angola theater would also be interested. Just saying...

- It's a good match for MiG-21bis

- It's one of the more capable III versions, as well as more multirole

 

 

 

Both the CJ and the Dagger seem quite limited and niche. IMHO.

[jojo]

Yes you're right for the doppler.

In fact there are 2 or 3 different types of doppler radar used on Mirage III family. Not all export customers got the flush mounted one, my mistake.

 

Agreed with the rest too.

[peker]

Absolutely Mirage 3

 

The Israeli Air Force ACES plane and the plane of the greatest Ace of the Jet Age: Giora Epstein

In Mirage 3 he performed his most shooting down (9)

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giora_Epstein

Edited September 6, 2018 by peker

[Vilab]

I did some further researching on these aircraft last night and I have a question.

 

How did the Dagger have more range than the Mirage III, when every source I've seen online (so far) claims the Mirage 3's range is higher than the Dagger's?

 

it seems that the Mirage IIIE carry sligthly less fuel than the mirage 5 ( from which the dagger are copies ) if they are on the same configuration

 

range difference may be caused by the fact any AG load on the Dagger is ( much ) heavier/draggier than the standart A-A load of a IIIE

Edited September 6, 2018 by Vilab

[Vilab]

AG and A-A may be both possible with the IIIE, but it would be a long cruise, followed by "hello, Good-Bye" because loiter time / time on mil power/AB would be very short

 

one of the reasons i don t have much interest in this map ( which is only good for Harrier / Fictive more modern war )

 

any AI flight from Argentina which is intercepted or fired upon would be doomed because it would use AB ( not even talking about stupid AI unable to stay in close formation even in peace-time cruise ==> use AB way too often to rejoin )

Edited September 6, 2018 by Vilab

[shagrat]

AG and A-A may be both possible with the IIIE, but it would be a long cruise, followed by "hello, Good-Bye" because loiter time / time on mil power/AB would be very short

 

one of the reasons i don t have much interest in this map ( which is only good for Harrier / Fictive more modern war )

 

any AI flight from Argentina which is intercepted or fired upon would be doomed because it would use AB ( not even talking about stupid AI unable to stay in close formation even in peace-time cruise ==> use AB way too often to rejoin )

You are aware that in ME there are "new" commands to control that and half a dozen other specifics for AI, since definitely more than a year ago?

 

Though AI would have a hard time to do this flight, yet what prevents an in air start to give them a few more minutes over the islands? In reality the loitering time was(!) a critical factor for the Argentinian Airforce, IIRC.

[jojo]

I did some further researching on these aircraft last night and I have a question.

 

How did the Dagger have more range than the Mirage III, when every source I've seen online (so far) claims the Mirage 3's range is higher than the Dagger's?

 

There are tens of Mirage III variants tailored to each customer need/ financial capacity. And there are a lot of BS on internet.

Dagger is Nesher/ Mirage 5.

Since there is no radar, avionics has been relocated from the fuselage to the nose, making space for more fuel in the Mirage 5.

 

Then it’s a matter of payload and flight profile...

 

Internal fuel:

Mirage III E with guns: 2404kg

Mirage 5/ Dagger: 2776kg

(Source: Lela book about export Mirage III)

Edited September 7, 2018 by jojo

[Auditor]

Can we agree that Mirage III takes it, then? still no answer on what variant was planned, though.

[MirageIII]

Can we agree that Mirage III takes it, then? still no answer on what variant was planned, though.

 

"This poll will close on 09-30-2018 at 07:02 PM"

[Stratos]

Wish they can clarify wich exact Mirage III variant, If C or E. The Dagger is just one, but the Mirage III can be several.

[KIKE92]

I hope they go for the Mirage IIIE, not only because it is the most versatile but also the most widely exported variant and would allow for alot of play with different skins and scenarios.

[dolfo]

...which module would you like to see in the new DCS Falklands map, ...

 

 

The Dagger is far more relevant to the Falklands conflict. I would like to see the MIIIEA too, but if I have to pick one, Dagger it is.