Easy Refuel Option

[Eldur]

Have you seen that red-yellow-green box for carrier landings in Ctrl+Enter mode in the Tomcat? I'd appreciate somthing similar for AAR. That would certainly help training the stuff (by visualizing what you can't judge on a limited frame 2D screen with the total lack of peripheral vision, depth perception, butt-meters and inner-ear IMUs) without actually easying it up really. Just need it for the fwd/back axis as well...

 

Main problem with the Hornet though is the engine spool. Takes 8-10 seconds to go from idle to mil. The real thing does it in 3.5-4 seconds - this part is so much easier in the Tomcat...

[Kayos]

:smartass:Oh boy is this thread going in circles.

 

Have you read any of the previous comments? Not everyone wants to just play SP, and they currently can't refuel for various reasons, so want some AI help. Even in SP, a mission might require A-A refuelling, and AFAIK, Infinite fuel is not an option on MP.

 

Anyone who thinks options are a bad thing to ask for is missing something imo. Maybe it's the altitude sickness brought on by sitting on that high horse?

 

It's almost as if some people have the need to feel superior to new users. Have they not noticed that this sim has got a lot bigger since the great unwashed masses were drawn to it via Steam etc? Those people will eventually buy modules, supporting development and take time to learn the complicated stuff, but why make it impossible from the get-go?

 

I say include as many options such as rudder assist, and easy refuelling as possible. I don't use them as a rule - but sometimes I might want to - unlimited weapons for example, when trying out new settings.

 

All the crying about "It ain't real tho", have clearly never worked on the real thing. You really want to spend 2 hours waiting for the weather to clear, only to be canned just after you spent 20 minutes on a startup? Do you turn on all faults - and abort if there is low pressure in HYD 2?, or spend 3 hours waiting for a blown tyre to be changed? Do you wait in a holding pattern.. Oh wait - we don't have a realistic ATC. Lots of things are far from realistic - because get this... It's a game. Shocking I know - but some people just want to have fun. :doh:

 

+1 well said.

[XtraChrisP]

Does anyone have any good AAR training missions?

 

For all you guys struggling with AAR, practice practice practice! You'll get it eventually. I know that it can be pretty frustrating when you're just about to plug but you're fighting turbulence and the tanker enters a turn, so here's a basic refueling mission where you get 2+ hours of a straight and level tanker. Good luck, keep at it, and eventually you'll hear those two magic words.

 

"Transfer complete"

Probe and Drogue AAR.miz

[Eldur]

here's a basic refueling mission where you get 2+ hours of a straight and level tanker.

 

It would help lots already if the AI just was able to fly a good and steady circle when set to Orbit at a waypoint. It's just harder doing this in a turn because the AI flies like a drunkard. This is something ED really needs to address. When they're going to give us that updated S-3 tanker and moar physics would be a good moment to do so.

[Cytarabine]

Practice is the key. I managed it finally after a lot of practice. Still suck at refuelling in the Tomcat where I don’t have a speed readout in the HUD to balance my speed for the initial approach to the tanker (have taken to loading the TID display as there is a speed readout until I am close enough and then eyeball it).

[probad]

:smartass:Oh boy is this thread going in circles.

 

Have you read any of the previous comments? Not everyone wants to just play SP, and they currently can't refuel for various reasons, so want some AI help. Even in SP, a mission might require A-A refuelling, and AFAIK, Infinite fuel is not an option on MP.

 

Anyone who thinks options are a bad thing to ask for is missing something imo. Maybe it's the altitude sickness brought on by sitting on that high horse?

 

It's almost as if some people have the need to feel superior to new users. Have they not noticed that this sim has got a lot bigger since the great unwashed masses were drawn to it via Steam etc? Those people will eventually buy modules, supporting development and take time to learn the complicated stuff, but why make it impossible from the get-go?

 

I say include as many options such as rudder assist, and easy refuelling as possible. I don't use them as a rule - but sometimes I might want to - unlimited weapons for example, when trying out new settings.

 

All the crying about "It ain't real tho", have clearly never worked on the real thing. You really want to spend 2 hours waiting for the weather to clear, only to be canned just after you spent 20 minutes on a startup? Do you turn on all faults - and abort if there is low pressure in HYD 2?, or spend 3 hours waiting for a blown tyre to be changed? Do you wait in a holding pattern.. Oh wait - we don't have a realistic ATC. Lots of things are far from realistic - because get this... It's a game. Shocking I know - but some people just want to have fun. :doh:

thank you, you have convinced me with such cogent logic

despite this being a simulator the price of learning indeed runs too high a cost to be considered fun.

 

apropos i think we should have an 'easy dogfight' option where we can, at a press of the button, win the engagement. not all of us have the desire to learn the esoteric art of bfm.

as sweet brown would say: "aint nobody got time fo dat!"

Edited April 26, 2019 by probad

[Flamin_Squirrel]

thank you, you have convinced me with such cogent logic

despite this being a simulator the price of learning indeed runs too high a cost to be considered fun.

 

apropos i think we should have an 'easy dogfight' option where we can, at a press of the button, win the engagement. not all of us have the desire to learn the esoteric art of bfm.

as sweet brown would say: "aint nobody got time fo dat!"

 

Ironic that you've criticised people for not being willing to take the time to learn when you've not taken the time to understand their argument.

[shagrat]

One major point our "realism" and "practice, practice, practice" faction is missing, is the fact some of us simply do not have the time to consistenty practice AAR over a longer time. Another point that we forget is, the intention of DCS to be accessible(!!!) for customers from arcade gaming, easy-mode to realistic sim with a "virtual Huey pilot" in the left seat and Jester AI, to hardcore realism with all bells and whistles... people forget how many "cheats" are already available and never "broke" the Sim.

 

That is why we have Autostart options, the options to simplify INS alignment, subtitles, radio helpers and many more, so people with disabilities, or people with a job, family and limited game time and even people who lack the funds to buy controller hardware for over 1,000 EUR to satisfy a couple naysayers can still enjoy DCS to their preference.

 

What I personally find very important is to make these "simplifcations" customisable and as an option!

 

If this is forced onto a full real squadron, that would be bad. On a private mission, between buddies or a singleplayer campaign, it will just make more complex and longer missions accessible for lots of people that would use "unlimited fuel" instead which is a bad thing as you never learn fuel management, consideration of weight loss during mission etc. all does not apply, where a simple auto refuel option(!) could help a lot of people tremendously to get into more realistic and complex mission flying, instead of 30 minute bomb runs and Air Quake.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited April 26, 2019 by shagrat

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Agreed.

[Eaglewings]

One major point our "realism" and "practice, practice, practice" faction is missing, is the fact some of us simply do not have the time to consistenty practice AAR over a longer time. Another point that we forget is, the intention of DCS to be accessible(!!!) for customers from arcade gaming, easy-mode to realistic sim with a "virtual Huey pilot" in the left seat and Jester AI, to hardcore realism with all bells and whistles... people forget how many "cheats" are already available and never "broke" the Sim.

 

That is why we have Autostart options, the options to simplify INS alignment, subtitles, radio helpers and many more, so people with disabilities, or people with a job, family and limited game time and even people who lack the funds to buy controller hardware for over 1,000 EUR to satisfy a couple naysayers can still enjoy DCS to their preference.

 

What I personally find very important is to make these "simplifcations" customisable and as an option!

 

If this is forced onto a full real squadron, that would be bad. On a private mission, between buddies or a singleplayer campaign, it will just make more complex and longer missions accessible for lots of people that would use "unlimited fuel" instead which is a bad thing as you never learn fuel management, consideration of weight loss during mission etc. all does not apply, where a simple auto refuel option(!) could help a lot of people tremendously to get into more realistic and complex mission flying, instead of 30 minute bomb runs and Air Quake.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Yes, points well laid out and very agreeable too.

[Kayos]

One major point our "realism" and "practice, practice, practice" faction is missing, is the fact some of us simply do not have the time to consistenty practice AAR over a longer time. Another point that we forget is, the intention of DCS to be accessible(!!!) for customers from arcade gaming, easy-mode to realistic sim with a "virtual Huey pilot" in the left seat and Jester AI, to hardcore realism with all bells and whistles... people forget how many "cheats" are already available and never "broke" the Sim.

 

That is why we have Autostart options, the options to simplify INS alignment, subtitles, radio helpers and many more, so people with disabilities, or people with a job, family and limited game time and even people who lack the funds to buy controller hardware for over 1,000 EUR to satisfy a couple naysayers can still enjoy DCS to their preference.

 

What I personally find very important is to make these "simplifcations" customisable and as an option!

 

If this is forced onto a full real squadron, that would be bad. On a private mission, between buddies or a singleplayer campaign, it will just make more complex and longer missions accessible for lots of people that would use "unlimited fuel" instead which is a bad thing as you never learn fuel management, consideration of weight loss during mission etc. all does not apply, where a simple auto refuel option(!) could help a lot of people tremendously to get into more realistic and complex mission flying, instead of 30 minute bomb runs and Air Quake.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Well said.

[SMN]

One major point our "realism" and "practice, practice, practice" faction is missing, is the fact some of us simply do not have the time to consistenty practice AAR over a longer time. Another point that we forget is, the intention of DCS to be accessible(!!!) for customers from arcade gaming, easy-mode to realistic sim with a "virtual Huey pilot" in the left seat and Jester AI, to hardcore realism with all bells and whistles... people forget how many "cheats" are already available and never "broke" the Sim.

 

That is why we have Autostart options, the options to simplify INS alignment, subtitles, radio helpers and many more, so people with disabilities, or people with a job, family and limited game time and even people who lack the funds to buy controller hardware for over 1,000 EUR to satisfy a couple naysayers can still enjoy DCS to their preference.

 

What I personally find very important is to make these "simplifcations" customisable and as an option!

 

If this is forced onto a full real squadron, that would be bad. On a private mission, between buddies or a singleplayer campaign, it will just make more complex and longer missions accessible for lots of people that would use "unlimited fuel" instead which is a bad thing as you never learn fuel management, consideration of weight loss during mission etc. all does not apply, where a simple auto refuel option(!) could help a lot of people tremendously to get into more realistic and complex mission flying, instead of 30 minute bomb runs and Air Quake.

 

Just my 2 cents.

:thumbup::thumbup:

[shagrat]

Your two cents are worth the exactly the same amount as everyone else's.

Yes. That's why I mentioned it. :)

[RSharpe]

This is something that would be very useful as an option definable from the mission editor, and set by by the server as an option.

 

That way the really hardcore servers could still preserve their realism, whereas the more casual ones can at least give the options to have aerial refueling, instead of people simply avoiding them entirely.

[Exorcet]

This would be a good option to have, especially in cases where AAR is inflated in difficulty by sim quirks, like the boom operator which just ends up fighting you, or having a HOTAS that doesn't give you enough precision. If an addition doesn't remove the realistic option, it's fine to add to a simulator.

[VWJII]

This is a sim and the learning curve is there for a reason. There some accessibility options and "cheats" to get you going. But please, do not make arguments how AAR is the breaking point of accessibility for those who do not have the time or skill etc..

First of all, there is the option for unlimited fuel.

More importantly, I went for YEARS without AAR and only recently started training, because I started flying mission which require it with my group. But I never needed it for casual training, flying or fooling around. Not once.

 

Not mastering AAR does not prohibit you from anything. Same as landing on a carrier.

[Exorcet]

First of all, there is the option for unlimited fuel.

Just to point out, as you said, this is a sim. Unlimited fuel is unrealistic for a number of reasons.

 

 

Easy refuel gives you fuel management and all associated penalties, retains the impact of fuel on mission planning and aircraft performance, and is very simple to use for people who can't get highly precise controls. Why settle for unlimited fuel and its unnecessary concessions to realism when we can have a better option (permitting ED's resources to create it)?

[discwalker]

@VWJII, Last of all it is unlimited fuel option, with those fuel management is broken.

Unlimited fuel option is not a feature that renders Easy AAR unnecessary.

I bet you never used unlimited fuel.

Your opinion is hurting.

[VWJII]

@VWJII, Last of all it is unlimited fuel option, with those fuel management is broken.

Unlimited fuel option is not a feature that renders Easy AAR unnecessary.

I bet you never used unlimited fuel.

Your opinion is hurting.

You will have to read again. I went for years without AAR with normal fuel. You don't need AAR to fly.

[VWJII]

Just to point out, as you said, this is a sim. Unlimited fuel is unrealistic for a number of reasons.

 

 

Easy refuel gives you fuel management and all associated penalties, retains the impact of fuel on mission planning and aircraft performance, and is very simple to use for people who can't get highly precise controls. Why settle for unlimited fuel and its unnecessary concessions to realism when we can have a better option (permitting ED's resources to create it)?

Because if you wish to retain realism then easy AAR is not the option. Plan around it, land and refuel on the ground. That is the easy option if you must refuel during a mission. Very realistic and already implemented.

[Exorcet]

Because if you wish to retain realism then easy AAR is not the option.

That's not quite right. It's not really realistic to be hampered in AAR by poor controls or a poor tanker operator. It's certainly not realistic for your plane to not consume fuel. Easy refuel is realistic in comparison to some other options. Realism is not all or nothing. There is a strange tendency on this forum to label anything not perceived as being realistic as possible as "arcade". It doesn't really make any sense given that even the most accurate DCS modules have to make compromises with respect to simulation. Easy refuel isn't a request to remove realism from DCS. It's actually closer to the opposite, at least in situations where there is an issue with the current AAR implementation.

 

 

Easy AAR would also be a nice tool for mission testing too thinking about it, though the aircraft jump trick serves that purpose as well I guess.

 

 

 

Plan around it, land and refuel on the ground. That is the easy option if you must refuel during a mission. Very realistic and already implemented.

Landing isn't realistic at all when there aren't any airbases on your route. Tankers are used for a reason, they can't be replaced with airbases.

 

 

I get the desire to keep DCS realistic, everyone playing it should want that. Denying options like easy AAR does nothing to further that goal though. If it doesn't make the sim less realistic, what is the issue? And for what it's worth I'd personally prioritize better tanker AI. The negative reaction to the suggestion in this thread seems like it's a bit much though in my opinion.

[VWJII]

I get the desire to keep DCS realistic, everyone playing it should want that. Denying options like easy AAR does nothing to further that goal though. If it doesn't make the sim less realistic, what is the issue? And for what it's worth I'd personally prioritize better tanker AI. The negative reaction to the suggestion in this thread seems like it's a bit much though in my opinion.

 

Do you have the Tomcat? There is an option for assisted startup with Jester. Now, that is what I call easy and accessible. It is practically the startup tutorial, Jester tells you what to do and gives you all the visual cues. It is flawless, I learned how to startup the plane without using autostart.

 

Do you see the substantial difference between autostart and this? This assisted approach is what keeps realism, while enabling the pilot to learn and eventually perform the tasks on their own. This is what is needed for the sake of accessibility and easing the players into the complex environment of a sim.

 

Cheats and autostarts do not teach you anything. If you really want to make things easy for players, then think in perspective of educating them better, rather than simplifying things for them. What is needed, is exactly some sort of assisted AAR, which would give me all the visual queues and instructions. Not a button that refuels for you.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

This request takes nothing away from this sim for you or anyone else. And this sim means different things to different people, so you have no business telling others how to enjoy it.

[shagrat]

Do you have the Tomcat? There is an option for assisted startup with Jester. Now, that is what I call easy and accessible. It is practically the startup tutorial, Jester tells you what to do and gives you all the visual cues. It is flawless, I learned how to startup the plane without using autostart.

 

Do you see the substantial difference between autostart and this? This assisted approach is what keeps realism, while enabling the pilot to learn and eventually perform the tasks on their own. This is what is needed for the sake of accessibility and easing the players into the complex environment of a sim.

 

Cheats and autostarts do not teach you anything. If you really want to make things easy for players, then think in perspective of educating them better, rather than simplifying things for them. What is needed, is exactly some sort of assisted AAR, which would give me all the visual queues and instructions. Not a button that refuels for you.

If I buy a product, that advertises as (...)"DCS World is fundamentally a deep, authentic and realistic simulation designed also to offer a more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training. The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator of such complex weapons systems as the A-10C Warthog or the F/A-18C Hornet."(...) I do not expect that I am FORCED to learn Air-to-Air-Refueling over a time span of several month playing time, instead of ENJOYING said product. I would question the "more relaxed gameplay to suit the user and his particular level of experience and training" statement and maybe feel cheated...

The reason DCS has the arcade modes and quick start-up, the Huey's "Autopilot", coordinates displaying to precision in a convenient field to write down, threat rings showing on the F10 map and more "cheats" is, that only a very small, but vocal group consists of die-hard virtual squadron members, that can easily play DCS as hardcore as they want, by deactivating or simply not using the features. I guess, you do not use the ruler and coordinates on the "unrealistic" elevation map only "Map" in F10 view, right? Or do you cheat with coordinate display and computed distance/angle ruler?

Others may want the "more relaxed" gameplay as advertised and thus I think an OPTION to have "easy/easier AAR" would be a great addition to people with limited spare time for their hobby, to better enjoy DCS. With planes like the AV-8B Harrier or F/A-18C Hornet, that basically require refuelling for most mission scenarios, or are very limited, otherwise, I would highly appreciate an easy AAR-option.

As long as a server admin can deactivate this, it should not cause any harm, but enable more players to learn more tactical missions, fuel management ( as they are not forced to use the "unlimited fuel" cheat) and let more people enjoy the depth DCS offers.

If they feel the need to learn AAR for real, later, they can easily do.

Master degree pilots can still do their little AAR trick, to impress themselves and others. Squadrons, will likely deactivate the option anyway...

Personally, I am all for such an option.

[shagrat]

Because if you wish to retain realism then easy AAR is not the option. Plan around it, land and refuel on the ground. That is the easy option if you must refuel during a mission. Very realistic and already implemented.

It maybe a bit disconcerting for you, but there are a lot of people that do NOT want to "retain realism", but have fun with a "realistic looking and feeling" simulation. For this audience time is a valuable resource, they want to spend on things they enjoy, not dread.

That is why making this optional is important. So it don't break realism for hardcore players and squadrons, as well as, catering the needs of more casual players.