F/A-18 vs F-16 Turn rate?

[sylkhan]

11 hours ago, karasawa said:

The drag polar of F-16 and Mig-29 are published. It is very easy to calculate its sustained G's as various speeds. We can also calculate the energy bleed rate at various load factors. Not hard to find out which one retains energy better.

  

All that is theory, and need to be take with a grain of salt, with these sort of graph, the DCS F14 is a better dogfighter than the DCS mirage 2000. (ahahah..)

Our french pilot pilot have said, how esay it was to beat the big, heavy F14 in dogfight (in real life), go figure

[falcon_120]

22 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

All that is theory, and need to be take with a grain of salt, with these sort of graph, the DCS F14 is a better dogfighter than the DCS mirage 2000. (ahahah..)

Our french pilot pilot have said, how esay it was to beat the big, heavy F14 in dogfight (in real life), go figure

All this stories of real pilots on how easy was to beat X plane, also needs to be taken in context... How many engagement did he participate in? against how experienced pilots? In which configuration.... so many variables

[Aquorys]

Numbers on paper are a bad predictor of the outcome of dogfights in general. The F-16 looks great on paper and everyone keeps talking about sustaining 9G turns and what not, but there are a lot more variables involved in real life with regards to who would win in a fight between the F-16 and some other aircraft.

It doesn't exactly help that you could sustain a 9G turn at 600+ knots while flying 3-mile circles when you're constantly on the edge of passing out and losing visual too, because you're getting too far away, all while your opponent pulls some serious instantaneous turn rate and still points his nose at you. What now? You might need to match that with instantaneous turn rate as well to deny a missile shot, and you'll both lose speed. Maybe your opponent has way better low-speed maneuverability or can regain speed much better than you do, or both if you're having a really bad day, and then you can find yourself running out of luck pretty quickly.

And such factors are also the reason why some more modern aircraft (e.g., the Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, F-22) don't have that much trouble dealing with the F-16. Not because they go around the circle any faster at 460 knots doing 9Gs, at sea-level, with no missiles. Much rather because they can match the F-16's 9G turn rate at a lower speed doing 7.5G, so they're chilling back there while you're passing out, or because they're dominating the vertical plane, or because they can slow down and accelerate faster than the F-16, or because they can sustain 9Gs better at 10k ft, with missiles.

That's also why the F-16 may not always be that good at dogfighting. It is very capable when it's light and going really fast, but fighter aircraft are not always that light, and they can't always keep doing 650 knots. Once you're below the speed where you can sustain those 9G turns, things don't look all that shiny anymore for the F-16.

Anyway, regarding potential dogfight situations in general, I'll just quote a Eurofighter pilot here: "You'd normally only intercept and get really close if you have a big tactical advantage, and that usually means two-on-one."
And take that with a grain of salt too. You may not always be in a situtation where you are the one deciding what's happening next.

So I'll close this post saying that I'm pretty sure dogfights, turn rates and generally numbers on papers are way overrated. They're just not a definition of how good a fighter aircraft really is.

[darkman222]

Multiple things going on. The F16 FM is not completed. ED started to work on it, but no more updates in the last 2 ones.

Then its just a game after all. Cheating in the F16 is difficult due to the restrictive FLCS. On the other hand, when playing in the F15 the "over over over G" sound is your best friend. Same for the cracking sound of the wings in the F14. Luckily the new G damage model for the F18 makes paddle pullers snap their wings. That was some kind of relief to see some paddle pulling F18 just explode after merge on the dogfight server, when the G damage improvement was introduced

What I am saying is that you have to fight against human players on a regular basis to get a feeling how your chances are in aircraft X against enemy aircraft Y. My chances to win a fight in a F15 is higher than in a F16 currently. The reasons for the outcome are quite many. A big factor is that its a game and people fly unrealistic.

But what I would say is, two fly by wire aircraft fighting against each other should bring up results that are expected by public knowledge. F16 should be outrating aircraft it should be able to outrate. I am not talking about dogfighting in general which is a fluid sequence of manovers. I am talking about when all options are taken away from two human players. Every card is played. Just sitting on the deck and and doing a two circle fight. That happens quite some times on the dogfight server. What counts now is if the pilot knows the best turn rate for his aircraft with the given fuel state. I'd say fuel state because on the dogfight server you mostly dont have missiles as extra weight. If the result is not turning out as expected something must be wrong in the FM of one or both aircraft.

[karasawa]

13 hours ago, sylkhan said:

yes I know the propaganda and the biased assumptions of US pilots, I also know about the falsified (for marketing purpose) documents about the supposed performances of some US aircrafts, but the only serious proof is real fight.

https://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm

"But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft’s superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’. We didn’t operate kill removal (forcing ‘killed’ aircraft to leave the fight) since they’d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!"

"They might not like it, but with a 28deg/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16's 26deg) we can out-turn them. Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the ‘Archer’ which can reliably lock on to targets 45deg off-boresight.

1. We are talking about sustained rate of turn. It's known to anyone that F-16's ITR is not the best.

2. Defeating F-16 with archer and HMD does not mean you can out-maneuver F-16. There are a lot of simulated gun fights where HMD does not work, for instance, check this:

 

 

7 hours ago, Youda said:

The document someone posted in this thread earlier showed that the F-15 in DCS is pretty overperforming compared to the real one.

I would say, even fighting against human is incorrect way of measurement. When you want to know the turn rates, you have to do it the hard way and do a test flight with stopwatches, to eliminate any possible human error and inaccuracies.

Can you please show us how?

It is already shown in previous posts, at least twice.

[Spurts]

On 11/4/2021 at 8:31 PM, captain_dalan said:

The AI in DCS is by necessity using very different rules when flying and obeying laws of physics. The Hornet is one of the best dogfighters in DCS right now and very hard to beat when no pylons are present on the wings AND bellow 10000ft, however when in the hands of an AI, it just rolls over and dies. Seriously, out of all the 4th gens in the game, it's by far the easiest to gun down. 

Also, on the topic of AI fighting, more pilot skill doesn't always equate to better. Especially for the modern planes. I don't have the free time to fly during the working week, so to deal with my DCS fix i setup small AI VS AI fights and just watch what is going to happen. A couple of nights ago, i setup an F-14 VS F-16 AI VS AI duel. Both planes timed to have almost the same time in burner. Set both AI's to ace. Then i let them fight. Outcome - draw. They ran out of fuel. Actually the Viper ran out of fuel a bit faster, but not by much. Changed skill level to veteran. Again -draw. Changed Viper to Ace, Turkey to Veteran, Turkey wins. And the other way around. It seems that, for modern planes, a Veteran skill level will give you better performance out of the AI. Contrast this with the F-86 and the MiG-15, which actually fight better at ACE. 

I did a test of same types and different AI skills.  higher skill gets higher "max AoA".  So in 4th Gen, Ace will turn tighter and Veteran will have more energy.

[Joe Miller]

On 11/7/2021 at 11:25 AM, sylkhan said:

All that is theory, and need to be take with a grain of salt, with these sort of graph, the DCS F14 is a better dogfighter than the DCS mirage 2000. (ahahah..)

Our french pilot pilot have said, how esay it was to beat the big, heavy F14 in dogfight (in real life), go figure

What do you have against the F14 mate? It is unquestionably an excellent dogfighter, and has a great sustained turn rate. As people have already said, there are SO many variables to pilot stories. The experience of the adversary pilot is a big one. Hell, there are accounts of mig 21 folks beating inexperienced F15 pilots out there. What type of fight were they participating in? At what altitude? What airspeed? Any stores/pylons? Etc... 

[gavagai]

 

50 minutes ago, Joe Miller said:

What do you have against the F14 mate? It is unquestionably an excellent dogfighter, and has a great sustained turn rate. As people have already said, there are SO many variables to pilot stories. The experience of the adversary pilot is a big one. Hell, there are accounts of mig 21 folks beating inexperienced F15 pilots out there. What type of fight were they participating in? At what altitude? What airspeed? Any stores/pylons? Etc... 

There is no way the F-14 is a better dogfighter than the Mirage 2000 in DCS.  The F-14 might outrate the Mirage at 320 knots, but there is a lot more to it than that.  The Mirage can pull so much alpha it's not even funny, and I guess delta wings are famous for that.  Back before the F-14 had its flaps made mortal it was a serious threat in BFM.  Maybe that's what people are referring to.

As for the Fishbed, I've shot down F-15 pilots online with it, with guns, but they were clueless.  I'm sure a Cessna could kill an F-22 under the right circumstances.

Edited November 8, 2021 by gavagai

[sylkhan]

44 minutes ago, Joe Miller said:

What do you have against the F14 mate?

Nothing, except it's a big heavy ugly plane

44 minutes ago, Joe Miller said:

It is unquestionably an excellent dogfighter, and has a great sustained turn rate.

In DCS world, ...yes, in real world,  no way.

44 minutes ago, Joe Miller said:

As people have already said, there are SO many variables to pilot stories. The experience of the adversary pilot is a big one. Hell, there are accounts of mig 21 folks beating inexperienced F15 pilots out there. What type of fight were they participating in? At what altitude? What airspeed? Any stores/pylons? Etc... 

i know very well your rhetorical arguments. it reminds me of an article I read recently.

https://www.portail-aviation.com/blog/2012/07/03/typhoon-vs-rafale-en-dogfight-le-f22/

I translate a little part because it's in french.

"We learn that there have been at least six mock fights, and of the six, the Raptor has only been credited with one win, and five draws.
The American embarrassment was such at a score well below that expected, that they even claimed that the Raptor was crippled by external tanks, which an OSF capture of the Rafale belies.
Bad players the Anglo-Saxons? We are now used to it"

Then like you said, perhaps F-14 had stores, or perhaps they were flying with the left hand, who knows :), or perhaps the F-14 is a very bad dogfihter, like our pilots have said.

I tend to trust our french pilots, a lot more

[PLUTON]

F 14 was not made to be a fighter, but to shoot down bombers at long distances, so it's true in real life he's a bad fighter but to say he's ugly !!!!! no it is very beautiful.
but it is true that the most beautiful woman in the world can appear ugly to those who do not appreciate the style.

[gavagai]

49 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

Nothing, except it's a big heavy ugly plane

In DCS world, ...yes, in real world,  no way.

i know very well your rhetorical arguments. it reminds me of an article I read recently.

https://www.portail-aviation.com/blog/2012/07/03/typhoon-vs-rafale-en-dogfight-le-f22/

I translate a little part because it's in french.

"We learn that there have been at least six mock fights, and of the six, the Raptor has only been credited with one win, and five draws.
The American embarrassment was such at a score well below that expected, that they even claimed that the Raptor was crippled by external tanks, which an OSF capture of the Rafale belies.
Bad players the Anglo-Saxons? We are now used to it"

Then like you said, perhaps F-14 had stores, or perhaps they were flying with the left hand, who knows :), or perhaps the F-14 is a very bad dogfihter, like our pilots have said.

I tend to trust our french pilots, a lot more

Wait, what does the F-22 Raptor have to do with the F-14?  I am confused.

Je lis francais, and what follows secures this article as frog bombast: Mauvais joueurs les Anglo-saxon ? On en a maintenant l’habitude.  Just as bad as american bombast.  French aircraft are awesome but I'm not sure what is gained by trashing our allies.  Fwiw, I've known quite a few USAF personnel, and I've never heard them bad mouth the Armée de l'Air or its aircraft.

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by gavagai

[Top Jockey]

1.  ... besides being off-topic, some posts really look like the kindergarten hour ;

2.  Before start talking nonsense " fighter X is better than fighter Y because I like so ", read first below with the due time and attention, just a mere example from who really knows what he is talking about :

 

( 6th post from top of the page, " A few points " )

 

 

...  I would recommend you start from that post, and keep reading further... as you might see, there really are TONS more to it than what we think we know.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Top Jockey

[Katj]

F 14 was not made to be a fighter, but to shoot down bombers at long distances, so it's true in real life he's a bad fighter but to say he's ugly !!!!! no it is very beautiful.
but it is true that the most beautiful woman in the world can appear ugly to those who do not appreciate the style.

How odd that they designed it with an ultimate load factor of 13 g, maneuver flaps and slats, internal gun, and all the other features of a fighter.

[captain_dalan]

8 hours ago, Spurts said:

I did a test of same types and different AI skills.  higher skill gets higher "max AoA".  So in 4th Gen, Ace will turn tighter and Veteran will have more energy.

And they(ace) tend to stay at higher alpha for longer. Yeah, that makes sense and would actually explain why in a protracted fight, the veteran would win after the ace has bleed itself dry. 

3 hours ago, gavagai said:

 

Maybe that's what people are referring to.

 

 

What people are referring to is their own inaptitude. Unlike RL there are no barriers of entry for most planes in DCS, so unless the plane is actively trying to kill you, virtually everyone and their pet can grab a HOTAS and dub themselves pilots or what not. They they go online, meet someone in a machine that has a barrier of entry, and suddenly it's the machine's fault they get shot down. 

[Blinky.ben]

On 11/8/2021 at 2:21 AM, falcon_120 said:

All this stories of real pilots on how easy was to beat X plane, also needs to be taken in context... How many engagement did he participate in? against how experienced pilots? In which configuration.... so many variables

And how many people that say I know a fighter pilot that says….. yeah I’m sure you know one  there must be billions of pilots or maybe everyone just knows the same one.

[gavagai]

36 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

 

What people are referring to is their own inaptitude. Unlike RL there are no barriers of entry for most planes in DCS, so unless the plane is actively trying to kill you, virtually everyone and their pet can grab a HOTAS and dub themselves pilots or what not. They they go online, meet someone in a machine that has a barrier of entry, and suddenly it's the machine's fault they get shot down. 

Need more context.  Maybe I'm dumb, sorry 

[Quid]

3 hours ago, sylkhan said:

Nothing, except it's a big heavy ugly plane

In DCS world, ...yes, in real world,  no way.

i know very well your rhetorical arguments. it reminds me of an article I read recently.

https://www.portail-aviation.com/blog/2012/07/03/typhoon-vs-rafale-en-dogfight-le-f22/

I translate a little part because it's in french.

"We learn that there have been at least six mock fights, and of the six, the Raptor has only been credited with one win, and five draws.
The American embarrassment was such at a score well below that expected, that they even claimed that the Raptor was crippled by external tanks, which an OSF capture of the Rafale belies.
Bad players the Anglo-Saxons? We are now used to it"

Then like you said, perhaps F-14 had stores, or perhaps they were flying with the left hand, who knows :), or perhaps the F-14 is a very bad dogfihter, like our pilots have said.

I tend to trust our french pilots, a lot more

Man, if the F-14's that bad, then your pilots must really suck to end up on the receiving end of its 20mm...

Third "Trigger Down" on a Mirage 2000 with witness mark in upper left corner indicating trigger is pulled.

Or, you can take what your pilots say with an entire barrel of salt.  When comparing their own aircraft to others, pilots have a tendency to speak in hyperbole.  I can't count the times I've heard or read about plane X's pilot being able to mop the floor with the other guy's airframe, and vice versa, just as a lot of other people have posted here.  It's frankly little more than prideful bullsh*t.

[captain_dalan]

1 hour ago, gavagai said:

Need more context.  Maybe I'm dumb, sorry 

Nah, it's not you, i was trying to be politically correct to an extent that i worded my statement way too ambiguously.
What i meant is, most of us DCS users, wouldn't get pass ground school, let alone be allowed in a jet trainer. And yet, when we read some article or an interview out there, we expect to be able to replicate the outcome of the content of said interview/article ourselves in the sim. In the case of ACM, let's say there is a wide consensus on what the "best" or at the very least "better" fighter is out there. Then based on that consensus, the average user will grab that module and expect to be better then the opposition by default. In what way is our AC better? What rules of engagement are in place? What tactics are being used? What configurations are being loaded? What fuel states? Who are we fighting? The short answer to all these questions is: "don' kno', don' care". And when i lose i fight, it wasn't because a screwed up and keep screwing up, but it's because the jet isn't properly modelled. Either mine or the bandit's, or most likely both.

And yet, you go to a random open server, and what do you see? Paint scrappers and bird watchers. If only they had  the foresight to ask their "pilot friends" how many fought DACT at treetop level and how often. And that's just the start. I am willing to bet an "internal organ" that 3 out of 4 people that read Boyd don't really understand energy maneuverability. And i think i'm being generous here. But, it's a game, and people need their ego fix, so they come here with their gaming mentality of nerfing and OP-ing, because let's face it, it's much easier and more FUN to do that, then actually learn how to properly fly your jet    

EDIT: oh, if you meant my use of barrier of entry, i meant that some planes don't suffer fools. And bad flying will kill you in them. I mean the plane will kill you, no need for bandits. These are mostly warbirds, and people being good in warbird flying are IMO much better on average then the rest of the community. For the record i neither am nor consider myself to be one of them. The modern FBW jets have no such barriers. Therefore people don't need to "get good" before they think they are proficient enough in their plane of choice. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by captain_dalan

[Hextopia]

7 hours ago, gavagai said:

 

There is no way the F-14 is a better dogfighter than the Mirage 2000 in DCS.  The F-14 might outrate the Mirage at 320 knots, but there is a lot more to it than that.  The Mirage can pull so much alpha it's not even funny, and I guess delta wings are famous for that.  Back before the F-14 had its flaps made mortal it was a serious threat in BFM.  Maybe that's what people are referring to.

As for the Fishbed, I've shot down F-15 pilots online with it, with guns, but they were clueless.  I'm sure a Cessna could kill an F-22 under the right circumstances.

 

It's pretty easy to just compare the EM graphs and see that the Mirage doesn't really have many options against the F-14 (Unless they meet up with a serious payload mismatch where the F-14 is crazy heavy and doesn't jettison stores).  The Mirage's only trick is to pull crazy alpha and hope the F-14 tries to get super slow with it, since the F-14 matches it in rate at a much lower speed and tighter radius in a comparable setup.

 

With how much more power and rate the F-14 has though, it's on the pilot to just reject the 1-circle and force the Mirage pilot to the deck, extending on an overshoot instead of trying to get into a scissors where you'd lose to the giant airbrake doing its airbrake thing.

 

tl;dr: The F-14 crushes the Mirage in the rate and radius fight for a similar fuel fraction except at extremely high alpha/low speed, so the only way the Mirage is winning a fight is with a scissors defense that the F-14 commits to, assuming the pilots are of relatively comparable skill.

[Spurts]

4 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

And they(ace) tend to stay at higher alpha for longer. Yeah, that makes sense and would actually explain why in a protracted fight, the veteran would win after the ace has bleed itself dry. 

 

More silly AI antics, I did F-16 vs 2xAce MiG-29s and 2xAce Su-27s.  I got one, lined up on a second, got hit by a single round, and the AI acted like I was dead.  Even Tacview didn;t count me as dead yet.  Made killing the remaining three rather unsatisfying.

[NineLine]

I think this is well off the tracks now, closed.