F/A-18 vs F-16 Turn rate?

[SCPanda]

1 hour ago, Jester2138 said:

Yeah, in real life. In DCS, with the incorrect F-16 flight model, it does not.

 

Yep. In DCS, it's the other way around. F-16 cannot outrate anything, Hornet will murder the Viper in rate fights and 1 circle fights. 

[Snappy]

12 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I dont see the hornet going vertical. The Viper has a greater t/w ratio and better acceleration in the vertical. Has to be since it absolutely murders the Hornet in rate fights.

Yea, that statement is likely true for real life. In DCS, no .Though I personally tend to think the issue is more on the Hornet side of things, not the F16 FM.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Snappy

[Hammer1-1]

16 hours ago, Jester2138 said:

Yeah, in real life. In DCS, with the incorrect F-16 flight model, it does not.

 

Well, give it time. The Hornet has at least 2 years of development ahead of it.

12 hours ago, Snappy said:

Yea, that statement is likely true for real life. In DCS, no .Though I personally tend to think the issue is more on the Hornet side of things, not the F16 FM.

 

When I get home from work tomorrow, Im going to test this. Ill come back with a better opinion tomorrow.

[karasawa]

If you want to rate fight in a Viper, stay above 10000 feet and maintain Mach 0.8 or higher (about 440 knots indicated air speed), I am pretty sure you can outrate a F-18 or JF-17 in this condition.

 

Don't go below 10000 feet. The current blackout mechanics prohibits you from doing sustained turn that fast.

Edited April 21, 2021 by karasawa

[TEOMOOSE]

Im just pushing info out there, here is what Mover said - I hope to have ED look into this, Thank you.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ManlyComfortablePeachPraiseIt-wtFGm_4VYWed-ied

Edited April 21, 2021 by Teomo

[darkman222]

Thanks for the info. You might want to extend your lower red box, so it covers the third line of the column too. Then I think you stressed enough what everybody already knows.

[Snappy]

21 hours ago, Teomo said:

Im just pushing info out there, here is what Mover said - I hope to have ED look into this, Thank you.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ManlyComfortablePeachPraiseIt-wtFGm_4VYWed-ied

 

NIce to read, but unfortunately this is far from  the substantial data that would get ED to change their models.
I'm not at all saying the statement is wrong, the source is good, no question. 
But there is too little specification for applicability in DCS ,as it's not mentioned  which variant and which engine variant of  both aircraft the paragraph

is about.

 

Don't get me wrong, I too wish the hornets performance was toned down in DCS.

But the big problem is, contrary to the F-16 , there is little data available for the Hornet with the engine variant they simulate.

So it's hard to check against documents / verify the flight model.

You have to trust ED, but then again,  they've gotten things wrong  before too, even in their much acclaimed flight modelling. (i.e. F-5 ground speed bug, or the A-10 getting an entire 1G more in capability with its A-10CII upgrade a while back). Nobody's perfect..

 
Regards,

Snappy

Edited April 22, 2021 by Snappy

[karasawa]

And you can still rate fight in a viper above 10000ft/Mach0.8. It works.

[Snappy]

30 minutes ago, karasawa said:

And you can still rate fight in a viper above 10000ft/Mach0.8. It works.

I'm failing to see the point of doing that  at such a  high speed .

At those speeds in a 2C fight, even if you re a few degrees further around your circle due to your small advantage in sustained rate, the distance between aircraft is so large than any semi-capable opponent could just rate around the remaining degrees using instantenous rate until pointed neutral at you again and then use the long drive to the next head- to- head merge to regain energy. If it's a fight with fox 2 missiles, even worse.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Snappy

[Hammer1-1]

57 minutes ago, Snappy said:

I'm failing to see the point of doing that  at such a  high speed .

At those speeds in a 2C fight, even if you re a few degrees further around your circle due to your small advantage in sustained rate, the distance between aircraft is so large than any semi-capable opponent could just rate around the remaining degrees using instantenous rate until pointed neutral at you again and then use the long drive to the next head- to- head merge to regain energy. If it's a fight with fox 2 missiles, even worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not a whole lot you need to worry about when your opponent is out of airspeed and altitude, thats the whole point of rate fighting.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[Snappy]

34 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Not a whole lot you need to worry about when your opponent is out of airspeed and altitude, thats the whole point of rate fighting.

 

Interesting.. did you even read what I wrote?

why should anyone be out of energy or altitude, just because of a tiny advantage above a certain speed range that the viper has- in DCS that is.

Actually I just wrote why this is not the case if you keep droning around at mach.8., going for rate.

The margin is not big enough or there at all to exploit against semi-capable opponents, in DCS.You’re lucky to outrate anything 4th gen at all. The Mirage yea. But then again,  no sound Mirage Pilot will keep fighting 2C.

 

Anyway this whole topic is leading nowhere. You can put out Viper braggadocio all day long if it makes you feel better.

We’ll see what the status is after the FMs are complete.

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Snappy

[karasawa]

Calm down. What I am trying to find is a makeshift for this broken FM.

 

Above 10000ft and mach 0.8 you have slight STR advantage against other Gen 4. That is the only chance this broken FM leaves us with. Why not get familiar with it, and make full use of it. 

 

Lets say a mirage finds out he is outrated by a viper in a 2C fight and he reverses the turn in an attempt to switch to 1C.

 

The viper also has the option to reverse to switch back to 2C.

Edited April 22, 2021 by karasawa

[Hammer1-1]

39 minutes ago, Snappy said:

Interesting.. did you even read what I wrote?

why should anyone be out of energy or altitude, just because of a tiny advantage above a certain speed range that the viper has- in DCS that is.

Actually I just wrote why this is not the case if you keep droning around at mach.8., going for rate.

The margin is not big enough or there at all to exploit against semi-capable opponents, in DCS.You’re lucky to outrate anything 4th gen at all. The Mirage yea. But then again,  no sound Mirage Pilot will keep fighting 2C.

 

Anyway this whole topic is leading nowhere. You can put out Viper braggadocio all day long if it makes you feel better.

We’ll see what the status is after the FMs are complete.

 

 

Yeah I read. You mentioned the hornet being able to turn inside the vipers turn radius and keep nose on the whole time. My point is that it CANT keep the nose on you forever, because at a certain speed and altitude that hornet isnt going to be able to do just that. You can take me to the bank with that, because thats usually how I get beat when I fly the hornet; whether its against an F14, F16...the whole point is to keep energy and make the other person lose theirs. You're thinking this all backwards.

[wilbur81]

On 4/17/2021 at 1:14 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

IMO, and its not worth much, as a regular Hornet driver I can take on an F-16 pilot any day of the week until Im down in the weeds...and then playtime is over. If Im fighting a Viper, I always take it 1 circle, thats on you if you take it. If I fly the Viper, I would always take it vertical against a Hornet; you fight the aircrafts limitations, not its advantages. I see this a lot in my squadron where they just pull back as hard as possible on the stick and expect to out turn me at any speed. No, you cant out turn me. You CAN outclimb me.

 

The Hornet rewards a pilot who isnt afraid to pull back on the stick; thats why it has that extra long LERX. The Viper doesnt have that, so why you doing foolish things like that? And so you know, the Hornets lowest possible airspeed and still maintain stable forward flight without stalling is 60kts. Granted its a 30' drop in altitude for every 5' forward, but thats how well the aircraft handles at slow speed. You cant do that in a Viper; dont even try it.

 

Good stuff. 

[wilbur81]

On 4/16/2020 at 9:26 AM, oldtimesake said:

It is interesting that a lot of people who disable G-effect are always complaining that F-16 is too OP in rate fight:

 

 

 

I watched GS's video on top there as well and was pretty surprised that he actually used the G-Limiter o'ride switch. I know it's only my personal style... but I NEVER, in MP or SP, engage that switch as I see it as a total cheat. I wonder how many people are getting beat in the Viper by Hornet Drivers who are (in my humble opinion) cheating and using the G-Overwide paddle switch?

[Hammer1-1]

I never use the paddle switch, and from what I heard its a crutch for some people. Its something to be used as a last ditch to get behind an opponent at the expense of bleeding all of your energy at once. Thats supposed to be a one trick pony.

[dundun92]

I know this has been the topic of many discussions, but IMO calling the paddle cheating is a bit too much. Its a function on the real jet that works in DCSexactly how it works IRL. Do RL pilots use it? No. Do I care? TBH, no. We are flying in a video game. Sure its a flight sim, but its still to some extent a game. ED does not make you uninstall DCS because you virtually die, even though thats the "realistic" thing. For example, do RL pilots intentionally go around notching AMRAAMs at 5nm? No, because it doesnt work too well IRL anyway, and even if it did you are 100% not gonna bet your life on it working every time, because it wont. In DCS? I can go around notching AMRAAMs like nobodys business. Do I get hit occasionally? Sure, but that doesnt matter. My life is not at risk because I get hit by a virtual missile. And that isnt to say I dont train not to virtually die; rather, im saying that the fact that my life isnt at risk fundamentally changes your tactics.

TLDR; the environment will drive tactics. You dont use the paddle IRL because there are disadvantages (long term airframe stress to list one) that in all but the most dire situations mean your better off not using it. But its certainly not cheating. In DCS, most of the downsides of using the paddle dont exist (e.g, we are effectively flying a new jet each flight).

That being said, this isnt to say theres not anything wrong with not using the paddle. But to call it cheating is a bit excessive IMO.

 

 

[Hammer1-1]

Its not cheating, its there for a reason. I never said nobody uses it for cheating, and Ill be very clear about this - I dont use it, its there for a reason, and regardless of other peoples experience levels its there in case you need to use it. I WILL state, however, that continued use of it may or may not be a wise decision. I dont nor wont ding people for using it as it serves a legit function.

[SCPanda]

Although I am a Viper driver and have been beaten by many Hornet drivers pulling the paddle (given the current problematic FM and G model for the Viper), I agree paddle on the Hornet is not cheating. They can use it if they want and I never complain. 

 

BUT I do hope they don't use it tho. Hahaha. 

[Snappy]

The paddle switch on the Hornet is a bit annoying. I actually wish ED hadn't implemented it, because I guess its exploited big time in DCS and on the other hand

it's a function of the FCS thats likely never really used at all in reality.

It would be ok if it was used as a one time pony like Hammer said, to expend all energy at once to grab angles for a shot. Because if the Hornet misses that shot, then it's stuck motionless in space.

But what I really don't like is that people habitually use the paddle switch on the other end of the spectrum. I.e. at higher speeds to get above the Hornets

7.5G Limit . And due to its uprated engines( or overpowered /underdrag FM, I don't know) the Hornet can, with use of the paddle switch, do quite a bit more

G  in sustained turns .And btw this is also where it seems to  outrate the Viper in sustained rate.
For many people this seems standard procedure going into a merge.

 

But its a more or less a philosophical decision. I can respect Dundun, who says, in the end DCS is a game and its irrelevant whether its used in reality or not

and the downsides of it are not modelled anyway.Thats his way of playing.

I find it  just strange that some other people keep hyping DCS's realism  and  how great the FM is and then happily put it ad absurdum  by pulling paddle all the time during a fight.

The real Hornet pilots have said it is  not used  for that.

 

Sorry , I digressed into a pet peeve of mine. Gotta take my calm-down pills now

Edited April 23, 2021 by Snappy

[Hammer1-1]

IMO, those who feel the need to use the paddle really should just stick to dogfighting good tomcat drivers. Theres only one person I know who can hand me my ass, and he always drives the turkey. There aint no beating a tomcat driver who knows his stuff regardless of how much paddles you use.

[Youda]

1 hour ago, Snappy said:

The paddle switch on the Hornet is a bit annoying. I actually wish ED hadn't implemented it, because I guess its exploited big time in DCS and on the other hand

it's a function of the FCS thats likely never really used at all in reality.

Be glad the switch increases the permited G load only to about 9. In F-14 you can still turn 17 Gs In F-15 12.

[SCPanda]

2 hours ago, Snappy said:

And due to its uprated engines( or overpowered /underdrag FM, I don't know) the Hornet can, with use of the paddle switch, do quite a bit more

G  in sustained turns .And btw this is also where it seems to  outrate the Viper in sustained rate.

 

In DCS, a Hornet can outrate a Viper without pulling paddle by rating at 350-360 knots (Viper flying his proper rate speed at 430). 

 

Maybe this is just how overpowered Hornet's FM is now, but I believe the underpowered FM of the Viper is also an important reason why)

1 hour ago, Youda said:

Be glad the switch increases the permited G load only to about 9. In F-14 you can still turn 17 Gs In F-15 12.

Yeah this is just absurd. F-15 can also pull some crazy AOAs. 

[Thunder_]

The viper manoeuvring  performance is below where it should be and a new drag profile has been promised to this amazing module on the new awesome clouds when the hornet was out or beta. Does anyone know when can we expect that ? Or the roll planning for the viper ? 

hoping to see its amazing capabilities to full strength soon . Viper ram !! 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Bozo_

[BIGNEWY]

Hi,

 

the viper flight model is work in progress and we have a flight model review planned, I have no ETA for you at the moment. 

 

I would suggest waiting until the viper is complete then review the flight model then, if you still think it is performing below where it should be we welcome your track replays and data so we can compare. 

 

thanks 

Bignewy