MiG-29's BFM characteristics / doubts

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Would there be a need to use flap and/or rudder?

[Pavlin_33]

On 9/28/2023 at 9:23 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Would there be a need to use flap and/or rudder?

Flaps give you mora alpha (angle of attack) at a cost of more drag (slower airspeed), so if your goal is to do just that, then flaps will help. I can think of one-circle fight, here.

 

[AeriaGloria]

Flaps actually decrease max AOA of the wing before stall. They just increase lift dramatically before that earlier stall. Many modules model this in DCS so expect so in MiG-29

 

On 10/8/2023 at 3:30 AM, Pavlin_33 said:

Flaps give you mora alpha (angle of attack) at a cost of more drag (slower airspeed), so if your goal is to do just that, then flaps will help. I can think of one-circle fight, here.

 

 

 

On 9/28/2023 at 12:23 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Would there be a need to use flap and/or rudder?

If your slip ball moves to the side, push rudder in direction of the slip ball 

[Pavlin_33]

6 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Flaps actually decrease max AOA of the wing before stall. They just increase lift dramatically before that earlier stall. Many modules model this in DCS so expect so in MiG-29

If I understood you correctly, if max AOA of some imaginary airfoil is 18 deg. and it produces X amount of lift, with flaps down the max AOA would be, let's say, 16deg with Y amount of lift, where Y is greater than X? Did I get this right?

Edited October 13, 2023 by Pavlin_33

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Pavlin_33 said:

If I understood you correctly, if max AOA of some imaginary airfoil is 18 deg. and it produces X amount of lift, with flaps down the max AOA would be, let's say, 16deg with Y amount of lift, where Y is greater than X? Did I get this right?

 

Yes, that a believable scenario. I’m sure there are flap designs out there that don’t behave like this, but if it’s a simple barn door flap I’m pretty sure this applies pretty universally 

[MAD-MM]

1 hour ago, Pavlin_33 said:

If I understood you correctly, if max AOA of some imaginary airfoil is 18 deg. and it produces X amount of lift, with flaps down the max AOA would be, let's say, 16deg with Y amount of lift, where Y is greater than X? Did I get this right?

 

small amount of flaps increase the lift with a slightly increased drag, more flaps little bit more lift with huge drage penalty. Slats would be improve the AOA for example.

Edited October 13, 2023 by MAD-MM

[BBCRF3]

В 27.07.2023 в 00:38, Top Jockey сказал:

Here is a print of the G loading comparison table, with the G forces attained while experimenting on DCS.

As in the previous post, what leaves me surprised is that for roughly the same speeds, the Mirage can pull more Gs than the MiG... which in real life isn't supposed to be.

Any opinions on why, or what I might be doing wrong ?

Thank you.

 

 

Because that's what the developer wanted. You won't find objectivity here. The Hornet has an inflated lift compared to reality. And the Su-27, on the contrary, has a low, unlike IRL

[Top Jockey]

On 11/6/2023 at 9:53 AM, BBCRF3 said:

Because that's what the developer wanted. You won't find objectivity here. The Hornet has an inflated lift compared to reality. And the Su-27, on the contrary, has a low, unlike IRL

 

You know, sadly (in my opinion as I praise realism above all) there's many other people around the forum, mentioning the very same thing you do.

I really hope it isn't the true, however many people here claim the MiG-29 and the Su-27's BFM performance in DCS is somewhat clamped in regards to what it is in real life.

Specifically, stuf like the delta winged Mirage 2000C being able to maintain a superior sustained turn rate than the MiG-29 don't quite yet convince me.

[BBCRF3]

11 часов назад, Top Jockey сказал:

 

You know, sadly (in my opinion as I praise realism above all) there's many other people around the forum, mentioning the very same thing you do.

I really hope it isn't the true, however many people here claim the MiG-29 and the Su-27's BFM performance in DCS is somewhat clamped in regards to what it is in real life.

Specifically, stuf like the delta winged Mirage 2000C being able to maintain a superior sustained turn rate than the MiG-29 don't quite yet convince me.

https://dcs.silver.ru/Diagram/Su27

[Top Jockey]

11 minutes ago, BBCRF3 said:

https://dcs.silver.ru/Diagram/Su27

 

Yeah, I see the discrepancies on the diagrams ...

[Pavlin_33]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:24 PM, Top Jockey said:

Specifically, stuf like the delta winged Mirage 2000C being able to maintain a superior sustained turn rate than the MiG-29 don't quite yet convince me.

I have experienced this in the Flanker during a dogfight against the Mirage: he outturned me (rate fight) and outclimbed me quite easily. I was also under the impression that delta wing would have way more drag.

[BBCRF3]

https://dzen.ru/a/XCdrPUGkHQCqkYuc

MiG-29 against Mirages, article in Russian.The original link is broken

A source Ing. JOSEF HLAVA «MIRAGE KONTRA MiG» // Letectvi+Kosmonautika 1-1996, стр.14-17

Edited November 18, 2023 by BBCRF3

[F-2]

7 hours ago, BBCRF3 said:

https://dzen.ru/a/XCdrPUGkHQCqkYuc

MiG-29 against Mirages, article in Russian.The original link is broken

A source Ing. JOSEF HLAVA «MIRAGE KONTRA MiG» // Letectvi+Kosmonautika 1-1996, стр.14-17

 

Not the first time I’ve heard something to this effect

 

https://hushkit.net/2019/08/12/mig-29-versus-mirage-2000-personal-account-from-by-air-marshal-harish-masand/

 

that was a formal evaluation, though the mirage had an older engine, instantaneous turn rate should be much changed.
 

one thing is the mirage 2000 in dcs seems to have similar sea level performance to the Rafale, though I’m not sure if this is reflected in the latest version. Rafale Marine gives a max instantaneous turn rate of 30 degrees (presumably sea level) while pilot Rafale gives max sustained turn rate as 20 degrees (again presumably sea level).

[Ramius007]

What makes me sad, is that we dont have any signs of discussion like here on Mirage 2k subforum, seems like everybody are content playing unrealistic module if they bought it, as long as it's overperforming, like M2k wasnt good with RL performance for it's time. 0.7 thrust to weight plane beating 1.08 T/W in a dogfight, nice "realism" ED team. Maybe just using stolen flying sourcer engine.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Ramius007

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Ramius007 said:

0.7 thrust to weight plane beating 1.08 T/W in a dogfight, nice "realism" ED team.

Numbers never win in a dogfight.

[Ramius007]

7 minutes ago, draconus said:

Numbers never win in a dogfight.

Indeed, that's why pilots flying 200h/y in inferior BFM plane, were break even against those with 50h/y in Mig 29

Btw, i think FC 3 Migs we have are performing to what we can read from interviews of real 29's pilots and their opponents, and data we have, issue are 3rd party devs trying to boost sales sacraficing realism, even if it's not really nacessery, but i pointed this already, that lack of timeframe based loadouts for modules somehow justify this practice. M2kC would be very good multipurpose plane in 90/00 mark, but when everybody wants to take their favorite plane to multiplayer setup with no rules, no timeframes, people competing in planes that range anything from late 50's to XXI centaury, then devs realize they need to do "something", same mess we have with DCS modding, everybody truing to add most modern missiles to every plane, war thunder power creep syndrome.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Ramius007

[sylkhan]

On 11/23/2023 at 4:24 PM, Ramius007 said:

What makes me sad, is that we dont have any signs of discussion like here on Mirage 2k subforum, seems like everybody are content playing unrealistic module if they bought it, as long as it's overperforming, like M2k wasnt good with RL performance for it's time. 0.7 thrust to weight plane beating 1.08 T/W in a dogfight, nice "realism" ED team. Maybe just using stolen flying sourcer engine.

 

Same for F-14 F-16 F-18, but remember it's just a game, all western planes are overperforming and all russian planes (mig-29, su-27) are underperforming.
You have to live with that, at least in the DCS hollywood game

[Ramius007]

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

Same for F-14 F-16 F-18, but remember it's just a game, all western planes are overperforming and all russian planes (mig-29, su-27) are underperforming.
You have to live with that, at least in the DCS hollywood game

I dont think Su-27 or Mig 29 are naceserrilly underperforming, it was just raported M2k FM issue especially on low altidues, what is reelly annoying is overperforming AI in dogfights, I would really love option that gives AI planes that have models in game realistic flight models and I m awere of cpu usage in multi level flight, but still. If AI F-14 can outrate my Su-33 is not Su 33 issue, but same thing people raport in F-18 vs AI Mig 21 it's AI SFM issue. As for redfor being underrepresented is knows issue, we have to use FC3 avatiation museum in any modern conflict for "realistic setup" It's good that avg. player in Mig-29A will struggle vs XXI centaury std "F teen" AI and human, it's just what makes DCS realistic, but definitely ED should either update Soviet FC3 pack with a bit more advanced weapons, add 2 maybe 3 AAM's more modern on planes that we know carry them or, make paid update to FC3, adding Mig-29SFM or something similar that have better fighting chance in modern era vs western hardware.

[Pavlin_33]

37 minutes ago, Ramius007 said:

I dont think Su-27 or Mig 29 are naceserrilly underperforming...

Not to open a can of worms here, but the Flanker in deed seems very sluggish for an air frame that has reputation of being a very good dog fighter.
MiG-29 in DCS in my humble opinion is much more agile and dangerous platform when it comes to maneuvering. Sadly, it has very short legs.

[draconus]

Unfounded complaints everywhere.

If you've found FM bug - report it with hard data that says how it should behave.

AI new realistic General FM is in the works.

If you don't want to fight against more modern aircraft and weapons - choose cold war era server or other realistic missions/squads. Note also that there are unbalanced conflicts IRL - it's called asymmetric warfare. DCS is not about balance in MP.

There won't be added new weapons to old airframes and no more FC3 aircraft are planned. Maybe when MAC comes we'll see what it offers for you.

[Pavlin_33]

5 minutes ago, draconus said:

Unfounded complaints everywhere.

If you've found FM bug - report it with hard data that says how it should behave.

Might be a bit harsh to call the complaints unfounded. Just because we can't prove something in black 'n' white, does not mean it should be discarded as hokum.

Also, how does one explain sudden perforance shift in some modules?

Devs discovered proper performance some years after the module's release? 

 

[sylkhan]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Unfounded complaints everywhere.

It's seems you don't know what you are talking about.

Try That : Go on a good dogfighter server, take the mig29 and try to beat a good pilot with Mirage2000, f-14, F-16 or F-18.

That's simply not possible, even if tou are a better doghfighter.

Does that reflect the reality ? by far no.

1 hour ago, draconus said:

If you've found FM bug - report it with hard data that says how it should behave.

Lol, nobody knows how a plane should behave except the pilots who flew them, we can just guestimate like You and ED.

The problem is that, there is no coherence in this game, for a lot of things.

1 hour ago, draconus said:

AI new realistic General FM is in the works.

That's has nothing to do with AI FM

1 hour ago, draconus said:

If you don't want to fight against more modern aircraft and weapons - choose cold war era server or other realistic missions/squads. Note also that there are unbalanced conflicts IRL - it's called asymmetric warfare. DCS is not about balance in MP.

What is your point ?

An old mig29 should beat with no problem a modern F-16 or F-18 or mirage2000 in dogfight.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by sylkhan

[Ironhand]

36 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

….

That's has nothing to do with AI FM…

 

 

 

It has everything to do with AI FM. The new General AI FM will replace their current FM with one which is realistic. Currently they can defy the laws of physics.

Quote

…An old mig29 should beat with no problem a modern F-16 or F-18 or mirage2000 in dogfight...

And this is based on what? Just curious.

[Volator]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

Maybe when MAC comes we'll see what it offers for you

Ok, I'm gonna derail these back and forth accusations now.

Wasn't MAC planned as a stand-alone product that has nothing to do with DCS?

[draconus]

1 minute ago, Volator said:

Wasn't MAC planned as a stand-alone product that has nothing to do with DCS?

It probably takes 90% from DCS but, yes, that is the plan.