Tomcat stability issues

[egirgin]

There is something wrong with Tomcat.. So far any high-speed, high bank angle G turns resulting with flat spin. I tested clean (no flap), full flap configs and attempted various turn and stall configurations too.. I never observed such instable characteristics in Hornet, what's everyone's experience? I am very frustrated and planning to go back F18..

 

P.s. I keep AoA in limits and ball centered always.

[TLTeo]

Are you a) disengaging roll SAS and b) engaging all the other SAS channels? I have never had the Tomcat depart and it's my most flown module behind the Viggen.

[JayBird]

How high of speed? What's your angle of bank? What G are you hitting? The Tomcat lacks any of the Hornets fancy, safe FBW control limits so it will fly very different

[DD_Fenrir]

We'll need a video or .trk file in order to see exactly how it is that your spin is being triggered - your description alone is not enough, and does not reflect the experience of most of us users.

[Wavehopper]

I'm not quite sure how you're managing that either. I have never had the Tomcat go into a flat spin by accident. I've found you have to work quite hard to induce one.

 

 

edit: Got me thinking, have you bound both engines to your throttle or just one?

Edited February 6, 2020 by Wavehopper

[draconus]

Can be anything. AP was ON? Wings still in place? Crossbindings?

[ebabil]

Are you a) disengaging roll SAS and b) engaging all the other SAS channels? I have never had the Tomcat depart and it's my most flown module behind the Viggen.

 

forgive my ignorance but what is sas channels?

[kengou]

forgive my ignorance but what is sas channels?

Stability Augmentation System. Three switches by the throttle control this system in 3 channels: pitch, roll, yaw. They reduce oscillations and instability in flight controls. Roll SAS can be a hindrance in maneuvering situations like BFM and should be turned off.

[Uxi]

I had that happen a bunch when I was new. Wasn't sure if I got (marginally) better or they're was a patch but haven't gone into a spin in awhile...

[egirgin]

We'll need a video or .trk file in order to see exactly how it is that your spin is being triggered - your description alone is not enough, and does not reflect the experience of most of us users.

I will try to produce one. I got spins usually with steep turns while trying to not to lose any altitude. The principle is turn, trim , pull and add power to maintain altitude. The spin usually starts with a strange oscillation (left right movement) then weird adverse yaw then i cant recover from it.btw, i tried it with SAS on and off, no big change. I read in one of the pohs that real pilots turn sas off during dog fights.. I will keep trying and get better, looks like i am doing something wrong.. Thanks

[kengou]

I will try to produce one. I got spins usually with steep turns while trying to not to lose any altitude. The principle is turn, trim , pull and add power to maintain altitude. The spin usually starts with a strange oscillation (left right movement) then weird adverse yaw then i cant recover from it.btw, i tried it with SAS on and off, no big change. I read in one of the pohs that real pilots turn sas off during dog fights.. I will keep trying and get better, looks like i am doing something wrong.. Thanks

 

These symptoms mean your AOA is too high. So you’re losing speed in the turn or you’re pulling too hard.

[egirgin]

Spins are good as long as you can recover.. I fly with single engines as hobby. Some of them very hard to put into the spin. Normally throttle to idle, opposite rudder of the rotation direction (full) then wait until spin stops.. Then nose down, add power and get out of it .. Obviously doesn't work for tomcat :(

[egirgin]

These symptoms mean your AOA is too high. So you’re losing speed in the turn or you’re pulling too hard.

Might be the case, even momentarily high aoa perhaps? Or not enough energy meaning i need more power? Time to get back to my seat to learn tomcat :)

[draconus]

Might be the case, even momentarily high aoa perhaps? Or not enough energy meaning i need more power? Time to get back to my seat to learn tomcat :)

 

It's normal for the Tomcat to roll left and right spontaneously at high AoA. Don't counter it. Just ease the stick a bit. Remeber to roll with rudders, not with stick, when pulling Gs.

Check your speed frequently (at least at first, until you feel it) to know if you loose it fast and to avoid stalls (usually below 150kts). The airframe is known for the deadly spins so it's not your usual aerobatics plane. You can escape from some but if you're too slow too low you're dead.

[Nexus-6]

Might be the case, even momentarily high aoa perhaps? Or not enough energy meaning i need more power? Time to get back to my seat to learn tomcat :)

Be careful that you're not "killing snakes in the 'pit". That is, the F-14 responds best to smooth inputs and not batting the stick around wildly like...well, like you're killing snakes in the 'pit.

 

 

Don't forget to use a healthy amount of rudder as you roll into a turn and, try to remove any lateral stick input before you start pulling.

[captain_dalan]

Also, if you decide to go into high alpha regime, make sure your ball is centered. No side slip. The higher the alpha, the more important this is. You can actually peg the AoA meter down to zero air speed and not depart the plane, IF you do this right. Just work the paddles.

[CommanderRabb]

Spins are good as long as you can recover.. I fly with single engines as hobby. Some of them very hard to put into the spin. Normally throttle to idle, opposite rudder of the rotation direction (full) then wait until spin stops.. Then nose down, add power and get out of it .. Obviously doesn't work for tomcat :(

 

I can assure you that it does work atleast some of the time. I got myself into a spin being reckless and followed that exact advice about breaking out and it worked. The nose pitched down and I was able to regain control just seconds away from slamming into the ground.

[IronMike]

Spins are good as long as you can recover.. I fly with single engines as hobby. Some of them very hard to put into the spin. Normally throttle to idle, opposite rudder of the rotation direction (full) then wait until spin stops.. Then nose down, add power and get out of it .. Obviously doesn't work for tomcat :(

 

 

 

 

There are certain spins that are simply not recoverable in the Tomcat. If you spin at a certain speed, you need to eject. (say above 40° per second rotation.) Also if you lost an engine, you might not have the power to get out of a fairly "normal" spin anymore, and the Tomcat does not appreciate assymetrical thrust in a spin, like some other ac might.

 

Additionally, if those two points do not apply to your spin, but you feel that your rudders are not grabbing, you can try to pull back on the stick (yes counterintuitive) carefully, which will position the stabs so that they provide airflow going up to the rudders and might just give you enough response to flip her over.

 

In general: it is extremely difficult to get a Tomcat into a spin, you have to almost always go out of your way to get it to spin. Even in the F-14-A, according to our SMEs, had to be done by willfully reckless and bad flying. In that sense, it is simply best to avoid spins in the Tomcat altogether. She's build so she doesn't stall easily.

[eatthis]

There are certain spins that are simply not recoverable in the Tomcat. If you spin at a certain speed, you need to eject. (say above 40° per second rotation.) Also if you lost an engine, you might not have the power to get out of a fairly "normal" spin anymore, and the Tomcat does not appreciate assymetrical thrust in a spin, like some other ac might.

 

Additionally, if those two points do not apply to your spin, but you feel that your rudders are not grabbing, you can try to pull back on the stick (yes counterintuitive) carefully, which will position the stabs so that they provide airflow going up to the rudders and might just give you enough response to flip her over.

 

In general: it is extremely difficult to get a Tomcat into a spin, you have to almost always go out of your way to get it to spin. Even in the F-14-A, according to our SMEs, had to be done by willfully reckless and bad flying. In that sense, it is simply best to avoid spins in the Tomcat altogether. She's build so she doesn't stall easily.

 

I did it a few times in the 1st few days but then realised id lost too much speed and the aoa sky rocketed, now i find it difficult to flat spin even when i do want to lol