[NO BUG]Cannot trim out roll when F16 is asymmetrically configured

[Sharpe_95]

Hi Guys,

I have found an issue with the F16 trim roll axis where it is basically impossible to properly trim the aircraft in the roll axis when loaded asymmetrically or when a load out becomes asymmetric?

 

Specifically I am having trouble when the targeting pod is attached and/or when I have fired 1 AMRAAM (creating an asymmetric configuration). I only tested these configurations, but I imagine the issue is a generic one for any asymmetric configuration on the F16.

 

My next question is: Is this the expected behaviour or just the situation with the 16 at the moment and will likely be 'improved' as the module develops?

 

Please see tracks for reference and note the descriptions of the track tests below:

 

1) The first track you should watch is titled 'F16 Trim Test Clean No Wind'. It shows me in the F16, clean with wind 0@0. I fly straight and level. You will see me deploy countermeasures, at this point I press the trim hat (HOTAS) button once - the jet (naturally) rolls. You will see me deploy countermeasures again, i then press the trim hat (HOTAS) button to counter the roll. As you see, the jet stabilises nicely (less my poor flying).

 

2) The next file to watch is the track titled 'F16 Trim Test Clean Wind 180@15knts'. This is the same as the first track, except i have put wind at 15knts direction 180. I perform a 45 degree then another 45 degree turn. As you see, the jet is not effected by the wind (this is, i believe, correct as the jet sorts itself out). But it proves that wind is not a factor.

 

3) The track 'F16 Trim Test TGP No Wind' is as track 1, but with a TGP on an otherwise clean jet. I try to fly straight and level but as you can see, the asymmetric configuration has imparted a roll on the jet (again, this seems correct to me). However, you will then see me deploy countermeasures, at this point I press the trim hat (HOTAS) button once to correct the roll - and the jet now has a roll in the opposite direction (this is where i believe the issue is, and i think it is to do with the 'coarseness' of the F16 trim input, although could of course be the physics/flight model, but i know nothing about those kind of things). You will see me deploy countermeasures again, i press the trim hat (HOTAS) button to counter the now opposite roll - and the jet now goes back to rolling in the opposite direction. As a result, given 1 trim hat press in either direction it is impossible to trim the jet for stable flight in the roll axis.

 

4) Same as track 3 except for x6 AMRAAMs. I fire one AMRAAM and the jet naturally begins to roll (fair enough). I deploy countermeasures and press the trim hat once to correct the roll - not enough trim input as the jet continues to roll slightly in the same direction (again this is fair enough). So on the next countermeasures I press on the trim hat (HOTAS) once more and now the jet is rolling in the opposite direction. On the next countermeasures I press the trim hat (HOTAS) once in the opposite direction, and the jet is back to rolling in the opposite direction again. Again unable to trim for stable flight in the roll axis.

 

For reference the countermeasures are only in the track files to show when I press the trim hat, they are not linked to the issue. I can replicate the conditions without the countermeasures.

 

Also, each press of the trim hat is a short press.

 

Finally, I am using a TMWH (in case it matters), I have not edited any lua files, I am on open beta, most up to date version with Windows 10.

 

-S

F16 Trim Test Clean no wind.trk

F16 Trim Test CleanWind 180@15knt.trk

F16 TGP Only no wind.trk

F16 AMRAAM Only No Wind.trk

Edited April 13, 2020 by Sharpe_95

[Davee]

+1

Trim is hard to maintain. It will not stabilize and rolls easily past neutral setting.

Constantly having to right then left adjust - rinse and repeat.

[randomTOTEN]

I took control of scenario 3.

After I finish trimming it, take control for yourself and see.

How to trim.trk

[Nealius]

I'm not entirely sure this isn't realistic. I recall this being the same in other high-fidelity F-16 simulations, and even the Hornet is quite similar; I've never been able to completely hands-free trim it out either.

[MadCat1381]

Even the -1 says "...precise trimming is difficult using the stick TRIM button." for roll trim.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi,

 

thanks for the report, I have passed it to the team for checking, I can not confirm if this is a bug or behaviour seen in the real aircraft. I will pass on any news I get from the team

 

thanks

[Sharpe_95]

Hi,

 

thanks for the report, I have passed it to the team for checking, I can not confirm if this is a bug or behaviour seen in the real aircraft. I will pass on any news I get from the team

 

thanks

 

Thanks Newy.

 

Also you might give the team a heads up on this thread too (more people seeing the issue):https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253253

[toutenglisse]

Just a personnal finding in case it helps (because it works for me) : set negative curves for roll and pitch (I use -15 for roll and -13 for pitch, I know several other users also use negative but different values) - it will make the airraft more responsive (my first expectation for doing this) but also make the trim LESS responsive, so easier to fine tune assymetric trimming.

(using Warthog flight stick)

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all

 

I have had a reply from the dev and a comment from a viper pilot on this.

 

Trim button on the stick is more secure than trim with knob and rollers in the Manual trim panel. But with the trim button on the stick, precise trim is not possible. To make more precise trim the manual trim needs to trim with the rollers and knob on the panel

 

Hopefully that helps.

 

So in short for fine trim it is better to use the panel, trim on the stick is less precise.

 

Thanks

Edited April 20, 2020 by BIGNEWY

[TAW_Blaze]

Hi all

 

I have had a reply from the dev and a comment from a viper pilot on this.

 

 

 

Hopefully that helps.

 

So in short for fine trim it is better to use the panel, trim on the stick is less precise.

 

Thanks

 

 

A recommendation for future handling of similar features such as:

- trim

- radar or equivalent mfd cursor

 

It would be worthwhile to make their sensitivity user definable much like a control axis. i.e. if I'm using a 4 way hat to manage my radar cursor, I'd like to be able to customize the sensitivity of the movement. Same goes for trim. Apparently somoene found a workaround for the trim in another thread, but it'd be great to have this as a general feature from the controls setup.

 

In real life everyone flies specific airframes on the exact same setup. We fly the same airframe with thousands of different hardware.

 

I don't understand why this was not done so far. Especially people with limited options (no spare axis) are totally screwed. As a simple example, anyone attempting to use F-16 radar cursor with a 4 way hat is going to have a god awful experience because of how slow it is compared to a mini stick.

[Enduro14]

I am of the mindset, if the real world viper pilot has to turn a knob by his or her left hip to get precise trim then that is what ill do in sim. Part of enjoying a sim is enjoying and understanding the Quirks of all air frames and dealing with it.

[TAW_Blaze]

I am of the mindset, if the real world viper pilot has to turn a knob by his or her left hip to get precise trim then that is what ill do in sim. Part of enjoying a sim is enjoying and understanding the Quirks of all air frames and dealing with it.

 

So if you don't have an appropriate knob.. you are shit out of luck?

[=4c=Nikola]

Just a personnal finding in case it helps (because it works for me) : set negative curves for roll and pitch (I use -15 for roll and -13 for pitch, I know several other users also use negative but different values) - it will make the airraft more responsive (my first expectation for doing this) but also make the trim LESS responsive, so easier to fine tune assymetric trimming.

(using Warthog flight stick)

 

I use negative curves for F-16, because I do not like positive curve it has built in the system.

[toutenglisse]

I use negative curves for F-16, because I do not like positive curve it has built in the system.

 

Yes it feels like built in positive curve - which I understand if it matches the real feel when using a force sensing flight stick like realsimulator.

[Sharpe_95]

A recommendation for future handling of similar features such as:

- trim

- radar or equivalent mfd cursor

 

It would be worthwhile to make their sensitivity user definable much like a control axis. i.e. if I'm using a 4 way hat to manage my radar cursor, I'd like to be able to customize the sensitivity of the movement. Same goes for trim. Apparently somoene found a workaround for the trim in another thread, but it'd be great to have this as a general feature from the controls setup.

 

In real life everyone flies specific airframes on the exact same setup. We fly the same airframe with thousands of different hardware.

 

I don't understand why this was not done so far. Especially people with limited options (no spare axis) are totally screwed. As a simple example, anyone attempting to use F-16 radar cursor with a 4 way hat is going to have a god awful experience because of how slow it is compared to a mini stick.

 

Yeah +1 on this devs - we dont have the blessing of a roll axis for a trim wheel and where as a pilot would feel for the wheel we have to look down take our hands off the stick to click the trim wheel look back up see if it worked and so on.

 

There is realism and pragmatism. I really hope pragmatism will win out here as this a making the F16 pointless to fly as is.

 

-S

[Enduro14]

So if you don't have an appropriate knob.. you are shit out of luck?

 

I suppose speaking for my self i don't spend 80 dollars for a full fidelity module so the devs can dumb it down to make life easier for Air Quake kiddies. I don't see the drama, its a full clickable pit and you don't think pilots have to take hand off throttle to adjust it and at times look down? I use Vr and my left hand controller is by my Left Hip so its pretty quick intuitive for myself. I am sure some can get creative with it until an axis is presented until then.

 

:thumbup:

[kawsakii]

Is there not a better solution to this ? the Joystick trim works well in every other mod except the F-16, having to do contortions to reach your left hip in Track IR and VR then hold the view while your righthand (assuming most people are righthanded) twiddles with a rotary dial with the mouse to trim out dramatic asymetrical roll is taking realism to the extreme.

[Sharpe_95]

I am of the mindset, if the real world viper pilot has to turn a knob by his or her left hip to get precise trim then that is what ill do in sim. Part of enjoying a sim is enjoying and understanding the Quirks of all air frames and dealing with it.

 

Do you use your mouse wheel left handed too? ;)

 

IRL a pilot would have muscle memory as to where the trim wheel is and would use the left (throttle) hand to operate the wheel (probably without even looking down, or of looking down, only to locate the wheel while operating it 'head up').

 

On the other hand, we will need to take our hand off the stick to operate the wheel by mouse clicking. We will have to take our view off the horizon and look down at the wheel, adjust, look up, adjust, look up - all with the hand of the flight stick.

 

Hardly a perfect reflection of real life? I get the commitment to real life but there is something to be said for pragmatism and helping out virtual pilots enjoy the sim.

 

I hope ED provide an option to help with the trim in the settings. Making a 'true or fine trim hat coarsness' option in the special settings would be a true compromise as it allows the hard core to do what they want while helping out those that cant fly with their mouse hand of the stick fiddling with the trim wheel.

 

Fingers crossed.

 

-S

Edited April 20, 2020 by Sharpe_95

[TAW_Blaze]

I suppose speaking for my self i don't spend 80 dollars for a full fidelity module so the devs can dumb it down to make life easier for Air Quake kiddies. I don't see the drama, its a full clickable pit and you don't think pilots have to take hand off throttle to adjust it and at times look down? I use Vr and my left hand controller is by my Left Hip so its pretty quick intuitive for myself. I am sure some can get creative with it until an axis is presented until then.

 

:thumbup:

 

So being able to customize your aircraft on an irrelevant feature such as trim to make it a more enjoyable experience makes people air quake kiddies? Damn that escalated quickly.

 

It's not dumbed down, it's called agency and it exists for a reason. The more agency people have over what they are using the better the experience. If every player had the 100% replica full cockpit I'd concur this is not necessary. However there are people flying on a single joystick or even a keyboard + joystick. These people will not have an axis and will have to stick to using joystick trim. Therefore at the moment they are automatically. For them trim is a worthless function unless you just dropped a2g stores because the trim is simply over sensitive. If you were rolling left and you trim one click to the right now you are rolling to the right instead and vice versa. Fantastic. This is the exact reason I flew for years without binding trim at all. Simply there is no point.

 

I added the same point for cursor control because in some of the FF aircraft the button control compared to the axis is so mind bogglingly poor you're 110% handicapped in combat compared to someone who has a separate axis for it.

Edited April 20, 2020 by BIGNEWY
1.1

[Enduro14]

So being able to customize your aircraft on an irrelevant feature such as trim to make it a more enjoyable experience makes people air quake kiddies? Damn that escalated quickly.

 

It's not dumbed down, it's called agency and it exists for a reason. The more agency people have over what they are using the better the experience. If every player had the 100% replica full cockpit I'd concur this is not necessary. However there are people flying on a single joystick or even a keyboard + joystick. These people will not have an axis and will have to stick to using joystick trim. Therefore at the moment they are automatically. For them trim is a worthless function unless you just dropped a2g stores because the trim is simply over sensitive. If you were rolling left and you trim one click to the right now you are rolling to the right instead and vice versa. Fantastic. This is the exact reason I flew for years without binding trim at all. Simply there is no point.

 

I added the same point for cursor control because in some of the FF aircraft the button control compared to the axis is so mind bogglingly poor you're 110% handicapped in combat compared to someone who has a separate axis for it.

 

 

chill I am with ya to a certain extent, its fun poking fun at you 104th folks. Its Early access last i checked, sure more will be added for hardware and hand eye handicapped folks.

Edited April 20, 2020 by BIGNEWY
removed masked profanity in post

[randomTOTEN]

So if you don't have an appropriate knob.. you are shit out of luck?

I got 3 of them in the F-16's virtual cockpit. They work just fine.

 

I made the 3rd post of this thread, taking control of one of OP's tracks where he claimed it was "impossible to trim."

 

It was a whole two clicks (actually 2 rolls of my mouse wheel) of the rudder knob.

 

I'm disappointed to see that track has FOUR VIEWS, and there has been zero comment on it.:mad::mad::mad:

 

 

... I fully agree with the developer's statement. Use the HOTAS trim commands for coarse adjustment of trim, use the rotary knobs for fine tuning. If you're in a situation where you have enough mental capacity to worry about minor roll/yaw mistrim, you have the ability to look down and manipulate the wheels as required. That's how the real aircraft works, it works fine in DCS, and we don't need gameplay concessions in this area.

Edited April 20, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[BIGNEWY]

We do have a wish list post here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253253&page=5

 

thanks

[WHOGX5]

I got 3 of them in the F-16's virtual cockpit. They work just fine.

 

I made the 3rd post of this thread, taking control of one of OP's tracks where he claimed it was "impossible to trim."

 

It was a whole two clicks (actually 2 rolls of my mouse wheel) of the rudder knob.

 

I'm disappointed to see that track has FOUR VIEWS, and there has been zero comment on it.:mad::mad::mad:

 

... I fully agree with the developer's statement. Use the HOTAS trim commands for coarse adjustment of trim, use the rotary knobs for fine tuning. If you're in a situation where you have enough mental capacity to worry about minor roll/yaw mistrim, you have the ability to look down and manipulate the wheels as required. That's how the real aircraft works, it works fine in DCS, and we don't need gameplay concessions in this area.

I don't know what you do when you fly in DCS, but good luck getting a good trim when you're number 3 in a fingertip formation or joining up with the tanker. I can take my hand of the throttle to use the ICP (which I bound to my numpad) while in formation and I could theoretically use my left hand to trim the aircraft. The issue is, I don't have any physical knobs for trim, and binding it to the keyboard doesn't give you any more precision than the trim hat does. I can't just look down behind me while in formation and drag the knobs with the mouse. It's also not feasible to break formation and go heads down every time I have to trim.

 

The only thing this does, is that flying formation or refueling at a tanker takes a lot more energy than it should. Flying formation in the F-18 is the easiest thing in the world, because you can actually trim the aircraft and only have to make small corrections if you start drifting. In the F-16, you have to make constant corrections just to fly straight, and then you have to make corrections on top of those corrections to stay in position.

 

Maybe it's not as big of an issue if you have a military-grade force sensing stick, but must of us don't and it's a major issue for us.

 

If you're in a situation where you have enough mental capacity to worry about minor roll/yaw mistrim, you have the ability to look down and manipulate the wheels as required.

There is zero logic to this statement, and I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. The issue isn't mental capacity. The issue is turning around to look behind you and find the trim wheels with your mouse. Real pilots with real cockpits can simply use muscle memory. We can't.

[Deano87]

I don't know what you do when you fly in DCS, but good luck getting a good trim when you're number 3 in a fingertip formation or joining up with the tanker. I can take my hand of the throttle to use the ICP (which I bound to my numpad) while in formation and I could theoretically use my left hand to trim the aircraft. The issue is, I don't have any physical knobs for trim, and binding it to the keyboard doesn't give you any more precision than the trim hat does. I can't just look down behind me while in formation and drag the knobs with the mouse. It's also not feasible to break formation and go heads down every time I have to trim.

 

The only thing this does, is that flying formation or refueling at a tanker takes a lot more energy than it should. Flying formation in the F-18 is the easiest thing in the world, because you can actually trim the aircraft and only have to make small corrections if you start drifting. In the F-16, you have to make constant corrections just to fly straight, and then you have to make corrections on top of those corrections to stay in position.

 

Maybe it's not as big of an issue if you have a military-grade force sensing stick, but must of us don't and it's a major issue for us.

 

 

There is zero logic to this statement, and I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. The issue isn't mental capacity. The issue is turning around to look behind you and find the trim wheels with your mouse. Real pilots with real cockpits can simply use muscle memory. We can't.

 

+1

 

Also: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4297374&postcount=44

[Sharpe_95]

I don't know what you do when you fly in DCS, but good luck getting a good trim when you're number 3 in a fingertip formation or joining up with the tanker. I can take my hand of the throttle to use the ICP (which I bound to my numpad) while in formation and I could theoretically use my left hand to trim the aircraft. The issue is, I don't have any physical knobs for trim, and binding it to the keyboard doesn't give you any more precision than the trim hat does. I can't just look down behind me while in formation and drag the knobs with the mouse. It's also not feasible to break formation and go heads down every time I have to trim.

 

The only thing this does, is that flying formation or refueling at a tanker takes a lot more energy than it should. Flying formation in the F-18 is the easiest thing in the world, because you can actually trim the aircraft and only have to make small corrections if you start drifting. In the F-16, you have to make constant corrections just to fly straight, and then you have to make corrections on top of those corrections to stay in position.

 

Maybe it's not as big of an issue if you have a military-grade force sensing stick, but must of us don't and it's a major issue for us.

 

 

There is zero logic to this statement, and I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. The issue isn't mental capacity. The issue is turning around to look behind you and find the trim wheels with your mouse. Real pilots with real cockpits can simply use muscle memory. We can't.

 

+1