I suck at landings

[Diesel_Thunder]

Started using Banklers mission to work on my landings. Wow, do I suck at these. Pretty sure CAG pulled my wings and kicked me off the boat after the last landing. :disgust:

 

I stink at altitude control. A lot of my aborts were due to me being too close to the boat after the break. On several attempts I tried pulling less G in the break turn so I wouldn't be so close and I still end up too close to the boat.

 

The one attempt that I was at a good abeam distance, holding the 30º turn to final, I somehow overshot the boat and ended up too far right. No idea what happened on that one.

 

Here's my summary of this morning efforts. The 4th attempt scored me as a bolter for some reason. I aborted that approach on final since I was too low and passed down the starboard side of the boat. There was also an unscored landing because I was fuel critical and needed to land, and didn't have enough gas to start from the beginning. Touched down with 40 lbs of gas, and the engines flamed out shortly after raising the hook.

 

Not sure where I need to start and direct my focus on what specifically to work on. Any advice for a rookie?

Edited May 7, 2020 by Diesel_Thunder

[Northstar98]

So do I :(

 

Then again I don't have a throttle or a rudder...

 

 

Best bet is practice practice practice, even set up short missions where all you do is land the thing, save a track, watch it through, see where you went wrong and figure out what you should've done differently and repeat.

 

Carrier landings are hard, it might be useful to try and simulate the length of the carriers runway at a shore base (you won't have an arrested landing, but you can simulate catching wires with triggers and a message.

[The Jack]

PFFFTTTTTT!!! If that's all your problem is you're ok....

 

I am a fecking SAM magnet!!!!! :megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol:

[Swift.]

First job is getting a good abeam position, ensure you break no sooner than 1NM past the boat otherwise you won't have time to descend properly. For the distance abeam, try pulling less g as needed to get the right distance, and remember that the HSI shows you abeam distance from the CRS in the bottom right.

[Lex Talionis]

"

The one attempt that I was at a good abeam distance, holding the 30º turn to final, I somehow overshot the boat and ended up too far right. No idea what happened on that one. "

 

If your abeam distance was solid, your AOB was no kidding 100% constant, and you are 100% trimmed up on speed for the entire approach turn, (all other things equal basically) probably turned to early and/or the boat doesn't have 25-30knots WOD.

 

 

 

 

.... approach turn is everything, and that starts with the correct 180* position. Practice the approach turn from an accurate 180* and the rest follows suit.

 

 

Good luck :)

Edited May 7, 2020 by Lex Talionis

[Razor18]

What TCN distance and what speed you use to break from BRC?

 

Are you sure you level off from your break turn not later than the reciprocal BRC (and not another 10° later, as if you would reference to the final landing heading)?

 

That's the only way to be closer than necessary to the carrier at abeam, especially if you didn't even pull 1% of speed kts for G. Phisically impossible to happen otherwise, as lower G gives you bigger turn radius. On the HSI set to 10 NM, your aircraft symbol left wingtip should about touch the set BRC course line.

[Raisuli]

HSI to 10 miles, CRS to BRC, your left wingtip should touch the CRS line on the HSI. It's not super precise, but it will get you close enough that a 27-30 degree bank will put you close, and you can tweak that as you make the turn.

 

 

...says the guy who can put his aircraft on the deck, either flight or hanger, almost every time, but I haven't run this mission yet. Still working on that final turn and approach in the groove...and I got that gouge from Jabbers. Can't take any credit.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

A lot of my aborts were due to me being too close to the boat after the break. On several attempts I tried pulling less G in the break turn so I wouldn't be so close and I still end up too close to the boat.

 

Enter the break at 350kts, airbrake out. Pull to achieve G that's 1% of your airspeed (i.e. at 300kts, you should be pulling 1G.) until you slow to 250kts. Lower gear and flaps, and ease your bank to 30-45 degrees until you're on downwind.

 

The one attempt that I was at a good abeam distance, holding the 30º turn to final, I somehow overshot the boat and ended up too far right. No idea what happened on that one.

 

Too fast? You should be onspeed (around 135kts).

 

Not sure where I need to start and direct my focus on what specifically to work on. Any advice for a rookie?

 

Can you post a track?

[Northstar98]

Just to show you just how bad I am at this stuff, here's a video of me landing the F-14 (okay not a Hornet, but it's not like it would've gone better) at Gadauta mind, but trying to follow the pattern for a carrier.

 

Key word: trying (and failing).

 

My brief summary is in the video description, I assume it's far from comprehensive...

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Northstar98

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Just to show you just how bad I am at this stuff, here's a video of me landing the F-14 at Gadauta, but trying to follow the pattern. Key word: trying (and failing).

 

My brief summary is in the description.

 

 

Youtube links work by wrapping the last bit of it within the Youtube tag: "9bTeLzCidZg" in this case:

 

9bTeLzCidZg

[Northstar98]

Youtube links work by wrapping the last bit of it within the Youtube tag: "9bTeLzCidZg" in this case:

 

9bTeLzCidZg

 

:doh: Lol, fixed, found another thing I suck at :megalol:

 

Anyway enjoy! Feel free to PM me words of 'encouragement'

Edited May 7, 2020 by Northstar98

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Yeah. Not exactly obvious is it!

[Diesel_Thunder]

What TCN distance and what speed you use to break from BRC?

 

Are you sure you level off from your break turn not later than the reciprocal BRC (and not another 10° later, as if you would reference to the final landing heading)?

 

That's the only way to be closer than necessary to the carrier at abeam, especially if you didn't even pull 1% of speed kts for G. Phisically impossible to happen otherwise, as lower G gives you bigger turn radius. On the HSI set to 10 NM, your aircraft symbol left wingtip should about touch the set BRC course line.

 

350-400 KIAS, and was turning at 1 mile past (CV at tail), but that leaves me very little time to get setup. I now turn when the TACAN shows 1.5 NM in the HUD.

 

 

 

Enter the break at 350kts, airbrake out. Pull to achieve G that's 1% of your airspeed (i.e. at 300kts, you should be pulling 1G.) until you slow to 250kts. Lower gear and flaps, and ease your bank to 30-45 degrees until you're on downwind.

 

Too fast? You should be onspeed (around 135kts).

 

Can you post a track?

 

Not for lack of trying for sure. What I've been trying to do now is level out for a few seconds after 90º in the break to give me enough lateral on the downwind (1.2 NM abeam). If I focus on maintaining the G's, my altitude drops. If I try to maintain altitude, something else is missed. It's a struggle for sure.

 

Here's a track. This is pretty typical of my practice sessions. Been bad enough that I've run out of gas without ever trapping, mostly due to the LSO aborting my approach or waving off on (lousy) final.

case1 practice.trk

[Razor18]

Next time check your heading when you level off after break. Should be around 173°, if BRC is 353. If you break later, and still drift too close at abeam, I think your heading is less than 173°, and you are drifting back into the carrier instead of paralelling BRC.

[Razor18]

 

Not for lack of trying for sure. What I've been trying to do now is level out for a few seconds after 90º in the break to give me enough lateral on the downwind (1.2 NM abeam). If I focus on maintaining the G's, my altitude drops. If I try to maintain altitude, something else is missed. It's a struggle for sure.

 

Here's a track. This is pretty typical of my practice sessions. Been bad enough that I've run out of gas without ever trapping, mostly due to the LSO aborting my approach or waving off on (lousy) final.

 

Wrong BRC set (344 instead of 353). This way you can't visually control your aircraft symbol distance from TCN line, because it is 10 degrees off. At mission start it is already set to 353, so why touch it?

 

No ILS turned on and/or no channel set and ILS OSB not boxed on HSI. Both needles are very useful for Case I too.

 

Coming into downwind, trying to catch descend with stick, throttle probably on idle, by the time you trim on speed, you are dangerously slow, then throttling back up through slow spool up time.

 

Still OK'ish distance to start (1.2 NM), altitude is also OK'ish.

 

Bank angle way over 30° (rather up to 45°) almost all the way, you correct it back to 30° only once, around HDG 80, then let it bank back into the turn, making it much tighter than supposed to. No wonder you always arrive way short of centerline.

Continuously check bank angle 30 on HUD scale, check VV position for descent rate visually, check carrier.

Just before banking into turn, a little power on (need couple more knots), just before leveling off, a little power off, countering climb due leveling.

I would advise making practice level turns and level flight in landing configuration, on speed AoA. Fly small racetracks low, over open water. Stabilize straight and level flight with throttle, on speed AoA, then make a 30° bank 180° turn, adding a bit of power before banking, keeping the VV on the horizont all the time as much as you can with the throttle. Then pull a bit of power before leveling off again. Or make 360°turns with 30°bank, keeping the bank arrow on 30°, and the VV on the horizont.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Razor18

[Diesel_Thunder]

Setting the course as I did is a carry over from setting runway magnetic for landed based aircraft. I had assumed it was the same for setting the runway centerline of the CV (BRC - 9º).

 

Not wanting to learn using the ICLS yet, I want to learn how to do this entirely visually and get the basics down.

 

Noted. I' m improving on my timing to get the engines back up when I get the right speed. Sometime I get it right. What should the bank angle be going into the break?

 

The turn to final use to really screw me up when I thought the bank scale was marked off in 10º increments instead of 15º as I later learned. It seems like so much going on that it's easy to get behind the airplane.

 

I'm going to try that method Razor, by just flying around in landing configuration. Thank you for the feedback!

[hrnet940]

Try watching Jabbers video. It helped me get my stuff in order and get better at gettin' on the boat. Hope this helps. I am a visual person and need to see it to get it.

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Wayne

[CBStu]

A day or three ago in another thread I learned that I shouldn't drop gear at 350 while in the 350/800 boat approach. So now I am dropping it in the middle of the break turn and having trouble getting all set on the downwind before needing to start the final turn. My fix for my not being ready is to run upwind further past the boat. I had been starting the turn right over that speedboat. Now I go further but just by gut feeling how much further. I am going to take that 1.5 mile someone mentioned above and use tacan to watch for it.

[Razor18]

And what does the manual says for max speed for gear deployment? :music_whistling: or is the manual for dummies only? :lol:

[Svsmokey]

250 kts

[Razor18]

A+, but i just wanted to know if CBStu knows or cares about anything in the manual. Based on his post, uhmmm...

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Setting the course as I did is a carry over from setting runway magnetic for landed based aircraft. I had assumed it was the same for setting the runway centerline of the CV (BRC - 9º).

 

No you want it set to BRC, because you want your upwind and downwind to be parallel to the ship's course. The final bearing kinda sorts itself out if you get your self into position right.

 

Not wanting to learn using the ICLS yet, I want to learn how to do this entirely visually and get the basics down.

 

I think that's a good idea.

 

Noted. I' m improving on my timing to get the engines back up when I get the right speed. Sometime I get it right. What should the bank angle be going into the break?

 

~70 degrees. You initial break looked OK I thought. No need to straighten out late break as you did (this isn't a civvy circuit you're doing!), just relax your turn to ~30 degrees once your speed is below 250kts.

 

You can improve your altitude control with smaller throttle changes more often. You're correcting too much too late.

 

Your final turn was too steep as well.

 

Keep practicing :joystick:

[Diesel_Thunder]

So I practiced for about 3 hours today, taking off from Kobuleti. I flew out over water a few miles, got into landing configuration. Burned an entire fuel load (bingo set at 2k) doing nothing else but maintaining altitude at 800 feet, descents to 600, 30º level turns, and 30º descending turns. Was able to get a good grasp on that.

 

I then landed, refueled, and went back out to my "practice" area and worked on doing nothing but the break turn. Burned another 8,000 lbs of fuel doing this as well. Think I found my weak point. Maintaining altitude while pulling the right G, bleeding off speed, and getting the right lateral separation from the boat is tough. My practice didn't even involve the boat, just me doing a lot of 180º break turns. Definitely something I need to work on more.

 

Thank you for the tips Flaming Squirrel :thumbup:

 

And thank you for lining Jabber's video hrnet940, very helpful!

 

I know at some point I have to learn aerial refueling, though not now. I want to get landings down first. The Hornet and the Viper sure don't have the fuel endurance the Warthog does. What's harder to do? AAR or Case 1 landings?

[Razor18]

Hi Thunder,

 

keep up keeping up !

 

In the brake turn your "instrument scan" should be speed, G meter (maintaining 1% of speed) at least until 250 kts (then reduce bank to 30° for more spacing if necessary), VV on the horizont, and once in a while your BRC line to level off on reciprocal heading paralelling the boat.

 

By the way if you want to monitor your lateral distance FROM THE TACAN/BRC line at any moment, it's actually always written below the course indicator, but that line is just not visible (masked by Advisory list line), if the HSI is on the left DDI. Of course if you put it up on right DDI, it makes you peek at the right DDI in a left turn, which is not that comfortable.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Razor18

[CBStu]

A+, but i just wanted to know if CBStu knows or cares about anything in the manual. Based on his post, uhmmm...

I am learning and you are one of the posters I learn from.