I suck at landings

[zildac]

One issue I constantly have is the huge nose up after deploying full flaps once I roll out onto my downwind (having depoyed on the late break when at around 250KTS). At which point I'm supposed to be trimming for on speed and descending to 600FT. which is made almost impossible with the huge pitch up. Am I doing something wrong? The tutorials I've seen are really useful especially Jabbers one, but no one really seems to talk about the practical application of trim in any great detail in the context of the circuit.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

One issue I constantly have is the huge nose up after deploying full flaps once I roll out onto my downwind (having depoyed on the late break when at around 250KTS). At which point I'm supposed to be trimming for on speed and descending to 600FT. which is made almost impossible with the huge pitch up. Am I doing something wrong? The tutorials I've seen are really useful especially Jabbers one, but no one really seems to talk about the practical application of trim in any great detail in the context of the circuit.

 

For whatever reason you're not getting to below 250kts soon enough (entering the break too fast or not pulling enough G?). You should be below 250kts and dropping flap/gear about 2/3rds of the way through the break when you've still got a good amount of bank on; the bank prevents the the ballooning you describe.

[zildac]

Many thanks Flamin Squirrel, that makes sense and is likely exactly what I'm doing wrong. I'll work on that and see if things improve :thumbup:

[Raisuli]

For whatever reason you're not getting to below 250kts soon enough (entering the break too fast or not pulling enough G?). You should be below 250kts and dropping flap/gear about 2/3rds of the way through the break when you've still got a good amount of bank on; the bank prevents the the ballooning you describe.

 

 

The only other way to stop that ballooning that I've found effective is to slow down until alpha is over 8, then hit the gear and flaps. GB has said the RealThing doesn't have this problem (which is why I said he flew a fake aircraft), so this is a DCS artifact.

 

 

 

I typically do this with the airbrake on, but it's not required. If you're slow enough for ~8 AOA clean the aircraft won't balloon on you...as long as you're gentle with the throttle coming into on-speed.

 

 

If you hit flaps at 250 you get your astronaut wings.

[zildac]

Thanks Raisuli. Agreed, it does seem a little extreme....

[salsantana]

I can't provide the depth of physics and methods herewith, but when I saw your post I can say that despite my decades as a draftsman/AutoCAD operator, and time in the air in 4-seater Cessna, I cannot get my flight path parallel to runway/on centerline. I spend more effort on azimuth adjustments than altitude. I'm suspecting the flight path marker/velocity vector is much more essential than I yet appreciate.

 

I DO find I need to trim the nose quite downward (in F-18C) so I'm not fighting so much to get on the ground. The pilot I'd fly with showed me the extent to which planes actually "want to" stay aloft...... he'd told me to line up for landing on runway, then to try to lose altitude...... it was quite the challenge, very much as if the plane was much happier in the air :)

GREAT content in this thread, many thanks.

[maxTRX]

I can't provide the depth of physics and methods herewith, but when I saw your post I can say that despite my decades as a draftsman/AutoCAD operator, and time in the air in 4-seater Cessna, I cannot get my flight path parallel to runway/on centerline. I spend more effort on azimuth adjustments than altitude. I'm suspecting the flight path marker/velocity vector is much more essential than I yet appreciate.

 

I DO find I need to trim the nose quite downward (in F-18C) so I'm not fighting so much to get on the ground. The pilot I'd fly with showed me the extent to which planes actually "want to" stay aloft...... he'd told me to line up for landing on runway, then to try to lose altitude...... it was quite the challenge, very much as if the plane was much happier in the air :)

GREAT content in this thread, many thanks.

 

I use ghost velocity vector to correct for wind on downwind and final by aligning it with downwind heading then with the runway on final. To see your ghost VV in Nav mode all you have to do is press 'uncage' button, in case you didn't know.

Ground effect in Hornet flying proper AOA should be almost imperceptible from what I hear.

In DCS it's slightly exaggerated (on runways)

[jeffham222]

So I practiced for about 3 hours today, taking off from Kobuleti. I flew out over water a few miles, got into landing configuration. Burned an entire fuel load (bingo set at 2k) doing nothing else but maintaining altitude at 800 feet, descents to 600, 30º level turns, and 30º descending turns. Was able to get a good grasp on that.

 

This is key!!! But make sure you are practicing at a lower altitude than cruise---say 1500-2500' AGL--and at about the weight you will trap--2k-5k of fuel--and on AOA. All this plays a factor.

 

Here's how I do it--and I am sure I'll catch some crap for it not being "correct", but it works for me--I do FCLPs.

 

Load up at Nellis (or any airfield) with about 6k of fuel, with all pylons and centerline drop tank. This configuration is a good one as it represents a "normal" load out after a mission and you'll get the drag factor as well. Obviously be aware of runway headings...

 

Normal take off, turn and fly down wind about 5 mi past the runway, turn to final and descend to ~800'AGL at 350kts.

 

Break no sooner than midpoint of airfield (I prefer opposite end of runway that I will be landing on). How do I break? Surely not the "correct' way... Roll left hard, pull back throttles, and attempt to maintain Gs that equal 1% of airspeed (you know, 350kts=3.5Gs, 300kts=3Gs, 250kts=2.5 Gs and so forth) and in level flight.

 

I don't pop the boards.

 

I don't lower gear or drop any flaps until I'm around 200-220kts--I find this helps with porpoising or ballooning. When I am around 200-220kts, I drop gear and flaps. Usually by this time I am naturally descending as well and dropping flaps then helps to arrest the descent. Again, I find if I do this sooner, I climb like a rocket.

 

Trim to AOA (should be doing this a bit before as well), fly downwind managing throttles/climb descent, and make final turn to runway heading around when the left wingtip launcher hits the approach-end of the runway.

 

Try to find a spot on the runway to put your velocity vector--hashmarks, a certain centerline line, whatever. Practice this and you'll nail it.

 

You'll find that a lighter aircraft always is more sensitive/prone to climb/descend than an aircraft that is heavier--basic physics, right? That is why I like starting out with about 6k of fuel and landing with around 2000-2500lbs left. Remember, you don't touch your stick unless it is for roll, use the throttle to control climb/descent.

 

Find what works for you. But always land with full flaps--half flaps IS easier, but you'll develop bad habits and still have to learn full flaps--why learn stuff twice? Do it once. Maybe the same could be told to me NOT using the speedbrake but that is another thing to manage which I do not believe is necessary. Am I wrong? Maybe. But it works for me. I work in this "field" and honestly, on a land base, I see pilots dropping gear in downwind... so, I dunno.

 

Just keep doing it. You seem to have it sorted--work the break, then fly AOA, now put it all together! It'll come and you'll have a real sense of accomplishment when you nail that first successful trap on the boat on the first attempt!

Edited May 16, 2020 by jeffham222

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Here's how I do it--and I am sure I'll catch some crap for it not being "correct", but it works for me--I do FCLPs.

 

I'm not going to give you crap for not being correct - you're flying the sim as you want and you're not pretending your way is the right one, just that it works for you. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I will say though, I find that it's generally better in the long run to work on your technique in order to use the correct procedure than it is to come up with different procedures to fit with your wrong technique, if that makes sense.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Wow! How did you get LSO grade sheet? Is that only in F-14 (which I do not have)? Does F/A-18 have it? Beyond BRA in Case I , I get no messages from Stennis ATC or LSO?

My radio #2 is set to 127.500 AM. I never get LSO option in comms menu.

[Brun]

Wow! How did you get LSO grade sheet? Is that only in F-14 (which I do not have)? Does F/A-18 have it? Beyond BRA in Case I , I get no messages from Stennis ATC or LSO?

My radio #2 is set to 127.500 AM. I never get LSO option in comms menu.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=221412

[tees]

 

 

Practice a lot just try to remember main numbers in head.

[jeffham222]

I'm not going to give you crap for not being correct - you're flying the sim as you want and you're not pretending your way is the right one, just that it works for you. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I will say though, I find that it's generally better in the long run to work on your technique in order to use the correct procedure than it is to come up with different procedures to fit with your wrong technique, if that makes sense.

 

True. And thank you.

 

Wrong technique in maybe not using speed brakes, but as far as when I drop flaps and gear... I go by what I've seen in RL working around them. Call it a, "work around based on real world observations"... Lol...

[Diesel_Thunder]

Wow! How did you get LSO grade sheet? Is that only in F-14 (which I do not have)? Does F/A-18 have it? Beyond BRA in Case I , I get no messages from Stennis ATC or LSO?

My radio #2 is set to 127.500 AM. I never get LSO option in comms menu.

 

That is done through Bankler's excellent Case I training mission. He scripted it very well to do LSO grading. Works for both the Hornet (which I have) and the Tomcat (which I don't have).

 

Mission available here:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=221412

 

 

Using that mission, I am slowly improving my landings.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Diesel_Thunder

[Eldur]

I think this quote fits the issue well enough, since any landing you can walk away from...

 

"Here we go. Don't suck. Or suck with confidence if you're going to suck."

~CW Lemoine