A Few FLIGHT MODEL Issues With F/A-18?

[CommandT]

Hey guys I don't know if the followig are bugs or not but I noticed a few things:

 

1) If you try to do a "demo style" takeoff like what the second solo pilot of the Blue Angels does with flaps UP and pull back sharply for the plane to rotate off the ground with high alpha - in DCS if you do so the trim gets totally messed up - the plane will then keep wanting to trim nose up constantly and no amount of nose-down trim will make it fix this issue until you lower the flaps and/or gear - I am not sure which exactly. I find it strange and maybe there's a trick to "resetting" the trim system? To me it feels odd

 

2) Sometimes after a fast sharp roll at high-ish speed the plane starts to oscillate the nose left and right and you see the rudders try to fix the stability but the movement of the rudders seems out of phase so it seems like it's actually making the problem worse. I can't really discribe exactly when this happens. It happens sometimes and I'm like... errr, well I doubt the real plane does that... could be wrong of course but again, seems odd

 

3) This might not be a bug - can the real Hornet fly knife edge? Because the DCS Hornet does not have enough rudder authority at any speed to fly straight and level at knife edge (90 deg bank).

 

4) This one I am sure is a bug - If you keep pulling back at low speed and add enough thrust to eventually get full burner on a clean aeroplane you can get it to a point of where it is almost hanging in the air - moving very slowely - maybe 20kts or so (not sure exactly) and let go of the controls, leave it in full burner and it will fly itself straight and level for an eternity at like 75 deg of alpha and 20kts. Looks quite funny actually. I mean this is way beyond max alpha. I don't mean like an 80-90kts high alpha pass where it feels like it actually obeys the laws of physics.

 

--------------------

 

Otherwise I love the flight model of the Hornet. It may be the most real feeling of all the aircraft I've tried in the sim. So hats off to ED. I'm just pointing out a few minor things that cought my attention.

Edited May 23, 2020 by CommandT

[Swift.]

1) I don't know what the angels pilot does there, but are you certain it's not half flaps and gear, then remove both the gear and the flaps at the same time very soon after takeoff?

 

2) I think the roll behaviour in general is off, irl you should start to see severe departure issues after more than 360 of roll, but in dcs you can roll forever.

 

3) I don't see a reason to think it can do knife edge flying

 

4) Do you have a track of that? What weight were you, are you sure you weren't sinking (look at the sinkrate above the altimeter on the HUD)

[maxTRX]

You can really see these oscillations (your #2 item) at low weight. FCS... again.

 

Some people reported it over 6 months ago. Here's one my quick tests from that time.

 

[Stubbies2003]

Have seen #2 a few times when down low and getting on the flight control jinking against AAA. Very strange indeed.

[Fredmi]

You can add the ground effect being reversed to the list, don't hug the ground at 600IAS!

[CommandT]

You can add the ground effect being reversed to the list, don't hug the ground at 600IAS!

 

What do you mean? What happens?

[Swift.]

Below 20ft at 200kts+ you will be sucked into the ground.

[Eldur]

One thing I noticed is when you take a clean and balanced plane, don't fly too fast and pull up to fly a loop without bank angle and then get into high AoA, the thing starts rolling left and you'd have to counter that with right stick. Same for the F-16 BTW. Doesn't feel right to me, especially since there's an FCS / Flickes doing the actual controls...

[chaos]

2) Sometimes after a fast sharp roll at high-ish speed the plane starts to oscillate the nose left and right and you see the rudders try to fix the stability but the movement of the rudders seems out of phase so it seems like it's actually making the problem worse.

 

I've also noticed this behavior in the F-16C. Might have something to do with the "sample-rate" at which the simulation runs. It only happens at (very) high speeds.

[Phil C6]

 

2) Sometimes after a fast sharp roll at high-ish speed the plane starts to oscillate the nose left and right and you see the rudders try to fix the stability but the movement of the rudders seems out of phase so it seems like it's actually making the problem worse. I can't really discribe exactly when this happens. It happens sometimes and I'm like... errr, well I doubt the real plane does that... could be wrong of course but again, seems odd

 

3) This might not be a bug - can the real Hornet fly knife edge? Because the DCS Hornet does not have enough rudder authority at any speed to fly straight and level at knife edge (90 deg bank).

 

4) This one I am sure is a bug - If you keep pulling back at low speed and add enough thrust to eventually get full burner on a clean aeroplane you can get it to a point of where it is almost hanging in the air - moving very slowely - maybe 20kts or so (not sure exactly) and let go of the controls, leave it in full burner and it will fly itself straight and level for an eternity at like 75 deg of alpha and 20kts. Looks quite funny actually. I mean this is way beyond max alpha. I don't mean like an 80-90kts high alpha pass where it feels like it actually obeys the laws of physics.

 

--------------------

 

Otherwise I love the flight model of the Hornet. It may be the most real feeling of all the aircraft I've tried in the sim. So hats off to ED. I'm just pointing out a few minor things that cought my attention.

 

 

Hi,

2: I noticed the same it's very unconfortable in dogfight but i don't know if it's the same in real

 

 

 

3: Knife Edge here a video of F18 doing it

 

 

 

4: Same here

 

 

Best regards

Edited May 26, 2020 by Phil C6
F15 seems ok

[CommandT]

Hi,

2: I noticed the same it's very unconfortable in dogfight but i don't know if it's the same in real

 

 

 

3: Knife Edge here a video of F18 doing it

 

 

PS: for F15 too it's not so easy to get a nice knife edge in DCS but don't know if it's realistic

 

 

4: Same here

 

 

Best regards

 

 

Yeah it always felt to me like there is not enough rudder authority in flight in the DCS Hornet. Clearly it can do a knife edge pass in real life.

[Swift.]

Yeah it always felt to me like there is not enough rudder authority in flight in the DCS Hornet. Clearly it can do a knife edge pass in real life.

 

Worth noting that isn't a true knife edge, the pilot is pulling back on the stick aswell

[ruxtmp]

 

 

4) This one I am sure is a bug - If you keep pulling back at low speed and add enough thrust to eventually get full burner on a clean aeroplane you can get it to a point of where it is almost hanging in the air - moving very slowely - maybe 20kts or so (not sure exactly) and let go of the controls, leave it in full burner and it will fly itself straight and level for an eternity at like 75 deg of alpha and 20kts. Looks quite funny actually. I mean this is way beyond max alpha. I don't mean like an 80-90kts high alpha pass where it feels like it actually obeys the laws of physics.

 

The AI fly like this almost all the time when trying to maintain formation. The AI in my flight almost always are flying with at least 5 degree AOA higher than me to maintain position regardless of the speed I fly at. Its funny to see a plane in formation at 450 kts with 8 degree AOA. Possibly also why they burn fuel at so much a higher rate.

[CommandT]

So I wanted to replicate the Finnish F-18 demo takeoff - the result in DCS is quite frankly hillarious.

 

Have you guys ever done an inverted ultra-high alpha pass? Coz I have... flight model needs a tweak I think. :music_whistling::music_whistling::music_whistling: Have a look at the track below and try not to have your jaw hit the floor hahaha :megalol::megalol::megalol:

F18 INSANE FLIGHT MODEL FAIL.trk

[CommandT]

Worth noting that isn't a true knife edge, the pilot is pulling back on the stick aswell

 

True but not that much. The nose would fall below the horizon pretty quickly in DCS...

[Phil C6]

Hi at which speed did you try?

I tried again in F15, F16 and F18 and finally clean 400+ Kts:

F15 and F16 seem have a much effective rudder.

Effectively in the F18 the noze go down faster

 

 

Best regards

[twistking]

I'd really wish ED would put all rescources in finishing the aircraft itself before adding more weapons systems.

Flight model, damage model, avionics are all more important and more integral to the whole experience then yet another smart munition imho.

[CommandT]

Hi at which speed did you try?

I tried again in F15, F16 and F18 and finally clean 400+ Kts:

F15 and F16 seem have a much effective rudder.

Effectively in the F18 the noze go down faster

 

 

Best regards

 

Tried every speed - fast, slow, doesn't matter. Knife edge is impossible. In other jets you can keep VSI on zero in knofe edge no problem and I suspect you can in the real Hornet too.

[CommandT]

I'd really wish ED would put all rescources in finishing the aircraft itself before adding more weapons systems.

Flight model, damage model, avionics are all more important and more integral to the whole experience then yet another smart munition imho.

couldnt agree more. :doh:

[FightsOn]

The Hornet won't sustain knife edge flight...it doesn't have enough rudder authority. It'll to 80 degrees or so with G on it, but the rudder authority as modeled is fairly accurate.

[jojo]

2) I think the roll behaviour in general is off, irl you should start to see severe departure issues after more than 360 of roll, but in dcs you can roll forever.

 

Maybe not after 360° but yeah :thumbup:

 

[Swift.]

Maybe not after 360° but yeah :thumbup:

 

 

360 degrees is the written limitation in NATOPS.

[CommandT]

Let me get this straight. The Hornet gets out of control when rolled multiple times? WTF! That's insane...

[maxTRX]

Let me get this straight. The Hornet gets out of control when rolled multiple times? WTF! That's insane...

 

Don't quote me on this but I though it was happening only on early Hornets... have to check.

[wilbur81]

Let me get this straight. The Hornet gets out of control when rolled multiple times?

 

nonsense