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New: "GUN AMMO TYPE", Spitfire now has 6 ammo loadout options

-0303-

By -0303-
in DCS: Spitfire L.F. Mk. IX

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-0303-

-0303-

Posted
Posted

Haven't tried them but interesting.

P-51 have 3 different ammo loadouts, Bf109 have 5 loadouts.

 

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DefaultFace

DefaultFace

Posted
Posted

In the LUA file. Unfortunately only readable for the P-51 atm. Still seeing if I can get into the other aircraft lua files.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

Enduro14

Enduro14

Posted
Posted

On the Debrief screen after a mission you can see what the belts are made of but not exact number, but at least what rounds are in the belt.

Intel 8700k @5ghz, 32gb ram, 1080ti, Rift S

JG13Wulf

JG13Wulf

Posted
Posted (edited)
Realistic????

 

Historically not.

 

It's realistic.

In the Raf, ammo was ordered by the ground crew. And then they made the ammo belt.

Squadron who had to make interception or ground attack as regular task didn't had the same belt.

 

So custom preset is great.

In all country it work almost the same way.

 

So all squadron could have a common ammo set that was different from another one.

And some aces asked for special ammo belt.

 

there is the story about an early war pilot (not sure about his nationality) that ask for belt with only armor piercing bullet. He come back with 4 or 5 kills on german bombers. Heard it was an Easter Egg you could find in the one of the last update of IL2 1946 (using his name as profile pilot and the correct plane, you get the special ammo belt).

 

And if you want, the gun convergence was set the same way. Squadron could have particular setup and some pilots could have personalised one.

 

I make a big post about that some time ago.

Big step forward with those belt preset.

Would love to know what is in those.

Hope to see preset or the ability to modify convergence in special option of each plane.

 

So yes, it's historically correct. :)

Edited by JG13~Wulf
Davee

Davee

Posted
Posted

It is NOT correct the way it is defined.

Your information is also not fully correct. For example, the .303 AP was not effective and abandoned quickly for the more mixed belt which included ball and some DeWilde.

 

I did the ammunition and ballistics co-efficient for another popular Spitfire SIM and researched very specific information before applying data, availability including impact and resulting damage.

 

So I can tell you . . . . IT IS NOT REALISTIC for the Spitfire as it is presented in DCS PERIOD!

 

 

 

It's realistic.

In the Raf, ammo was ordered by the ground crew. And then they made the ammo belt.

Squadron who had to make interception or ground attack as regular task didn't had the same belt.

 

So custom preset is great.

In all country it work almost the same way.

 

So all squadron could have a common ammo set that was different from another one.

And some aces asked for special ammo belt.

 

there is the story about an early war pilot (not sure about his nationality) that ask for belt with only armor piercing bullet. He come back with 4 or 5 kills on german bombers. Heard it was an Easter Egg you could find in the one of the last update of IL2 1946 (using his name as profile pilot and the correct plane, you get the special ammo belt).

 

And if you want, the gun convergence was set the same way. Squadron could have particular setup and some pilots could have personalised one.

 

I make a big post about that some time ago.

Big step forward with those belt preset.

Would love to know what is in those.

Hope to see preset or the ability to modify convergence in special option of each plane.

 

So yes, it's historically correct. :)

JG13Wulf

JG13Wulf

Posted
Posted
It is NOT correct the way it is defined.

Your information is also not fully correct. For example, the .303 AP was not effective and abandoned quickly for the more mixed belt which included ball and some DeWilde.

 

I did the ammunition and ballistics co-efficient for another popular Spitfire SIM and researched very specific information before applying data, availability including impact and resulting damage.

 

So I can tell you . . . . IT IS NOT REALISTIC for the Spitfire as it is presented in DCS PERIOD!

 

I talk about general armament. If you have special data about one particular gun it's cool too.

Great if you are an expert in Spitfire armament.

 

Ps : In my post I don't mean it's perfect in DCS. It's realistic to have different preset and it's a step in the good way with this update. But there is still lot to do.

 

:smilewink:

  • Like 1
Art-J

Art-J

Posted
Posted

Catseye, since we don't know, because of files encryption and lack of any info from devs, what's hidden under these vague options (if anything really, they might as well be WIP gfx options without physical damage differences, like in bomb loadouts for Fw-190A for example), you can't say if they're realistic or not.

 

Also, you're here long enough to know that unless you provide some actual data that could be useful for the devs, you're just blowing hot air.

  • Like 1

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Grajo

Grajo

Posted
Posted

Personally I do not give a **** if it's "realistic" or not... There is nothing wrong about having a few more options for the Spitfire.

 

Another thing would be if it was suddenly equipped with AA missiles or so... :]

 

The addition is welcome, at least by me. :thumbup:

Link to my MODs - So far...

  • 4 weeks later...
Talisman_VR

Talisman_VR

Posted
Posted
To bad with all of these ammo options it's still firing useless observer rounds that were long since removed from the the RAF. Just a waste...

 

Attention to detail for WW2 outputs appears to be lacking in general terms IMHO. No historic bomb timer delay fuses for Allied attack aircraft would appear to be another detail overlooked at the moment.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Bell_UH-1 side.png

  • 9 months later...
philstyle

philstyle

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, NineLine said:

Hey guys, sorry to necro this post, but if anyone has any info on this they would like to share, I am digging into it a little right now. Thanks!

 

Catseye is the person to ask, Nineline. He has commented in the thread above a couple of times.
 

 

Edited by philstyle

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

Davee

Davee

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, philstyle said:

 

Catseye is the person to ask, Nineline. He has commented in the thread above a couple of times.
 

 

 

 

Thanks Phil,

Info sent to NineLine.

DD_Fenrir

DD_Fenrir

Posted
Posted (edited)

From my tome of "Guns of the Royal Air Force" by G.F. Wallace ( https://www.google.com/search?q=Guns+of+the+Royal+Air+Force&oq=Guns+of+the+Royal+Air+Force&aqs=chrome..69i57.12063j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

 

for the 20mm Hispano :

 

Quote

For the latter half of the war the standard ammunition for fixed gun fighters was a 50-50 mixture of HE/I and SAP/I.

 

Where the HE/I was designed thus:

Quote

During experiments to develop an incendiary [20mm] shell the effect of adding an  incendiary pellet to the HE shell was tried. It's performance against petrol tanks was impressive; it was far more effective than either the [plain] HE shell or the plain incendiary.

 

In 1940 the De Wilde type of incendiary composition was used and a High Explosive-Incendiary shell containing equal amounts of HE and Incendiary composition was approved..... it completely replaced the HE shall and remained in use until the end of the war.

 

The original [Hispano design] percussion nose fuze fitted to the 20mm shell was expensive, difficult to make and had a centrifugal safety device. One of its main troubles was that it was so sensitive that the shell would explode on the surface of an aeroplane, doing only superficial damage. It would be far more effective if it penetrated into the aircraft structure before exploding... [because of this the British] developed the the striker-less fuze which was known as 'Fuze Percussion D.A. No. 253 Mark I'. It was fitted... on all the HE/I. Besides being cheaper and easier to make... it gave sufficient delay in operation to allow the shell to penetrate some distance into the aeroplane structure before exploding.

 

 

Where the SAP/I (Semi-Armour Piercing/Incendiary) was designed thus:

Quote

By the end of 1940 the Germans were armouring their aircraft; in particular they were providing armour protection for for their self sealing fuel tanks. The Ball ammunition then in use would penetrate the armour without difficulty, but had little incendiary effect. The HE shell had good incendiary effect but detonated on the surface of the armour without penetrating to the petrol tank.

 

 In October [1940] the War office Design Department was asked to design a shell which would penetrate armour and also have some incendiary effect. During 1941 as a result of trials they evolved a shell which consisted of the standard HE shell body filled with Incendiary composition and having an Armour-Piercing tip in place of the fuse. Trials against 18mmm armour plate showed that the AP tip passed through the plate followed by the incendiary composition in flame whilst the shell body broke up on the plate. The penetration was better than the existing Ball ammunition, but not as good as a properly designed Armour-Piercing shell would be. It was however adequate for the conditions of the time as no armour over 12mm was being fitted by the Germans [to their aircraft].

 

Edited by DD_Fenrir
  • Like 2
Talisman_VR

Talisman_VR

Posted
Posted (edited)

This combat report (see below) from 7th March 1944 shows 150 rounds per cannon with 76 rounds S.A.P.I. and 74 rounds H.E.I. per gun for the Spitfire XIV.  This armament information is near the bottom of the report just above the signatures.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/610_Harding_7march44.pdf

 

This supports what is said in the book you have referenced DD_Fenrir.  Many thanks for your post.

 

I hope we can get SAPI and HEI loaded in 50/50 quantities as soon as possible for RAF Aircraft loadouts in DCS.  Specifically this should be the case for the Spitfire and the upcoming Mosquito.

 

I hope the developers have this information.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited by Talisman_VR

Bell_UH-1 side.png

DD_Fenrir

DD_Fenrir

Posted
Posted

Just found this:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060025446

 

This is RAF gun camera footage from winter 43/44, showing a mixture of Spitfire V, Spitfire IX, Hurricane and Typhoon gun camera clips.

 

Whilst notably poorer quality than the 8th and 9th Army Air Forces examples, it does show one important aspect - there seem to be no tracer rounds for any of the Spitfire IX guns at this point, across any of the squadrons involved.

 

While some may say that the film quality maybe too poor to discern, I would beg to differ; while many of these clips from a collection of 8th Army Air Force gun camera reels show a similar lack of tracer, there are moments when it appears and is unmistakable:

 

 

 

The contrast of the tracer is too bright and too distinctive to be confused with grain/dirt/noise on the RAF examples.

 

Ergo, I suggest that a no tracer loadout should be the default for the Spitfire IX, with tracers as an option for those that wish to have them.

  • 3 months later...
Gunfreak

Gunfreak

Posted
Posted
On 4/29/2021 at 6:22 PM, NineLine said:

This is what I have coming if all goes well in testing:
image.png

 

What's the diffrence between the fist and second one, they are both HEI/SAPI but what is the diffrence. 

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DD_Fenrir

DD_Fenrir

Posted
Posted

 

 

1 minute ago, Gunfreak said:

 

What's the diffrence between the fist and second one, they are both HEI/SAPI but what is the diffrence. 

 

The .303 loadout. 

 

APIT = Armour Piercing rounds + De Wilde Incendiary + Tracer

BalT = Ball (solid metal slug) rounds + De Wilde Incendiary + Tracer 

 

The API and Bal are the same as above with the tracer omitted.

 

The 20mm only have HEI/SAPI round options with no tracer, as per authentic WW2 loadout.

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