Please, remove unnecessary liveries from DCS builds. Put them in separate packs

[buceador]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

If $65-$100 is a significant amount to anyone, they should maybe re-examine life’s priorities and consider improving their situation

I don't think I have ever read anything so blatantly arrogant and demeaning on this forum before...

[Galinette]

@SharpeXB I think everyone in this thread knows your opinion now. 

I summarize:

• Anyone considering that $65-$100 is a significant amount should re-examine its life priorities.
• Having 50GB (and growing at a fast pace) of textures on the base install is not an issue for you.
• Removing liveries in the base install is bad because it will allow people cheating.

Please add something constructive, or let us discuss the topic constructively, your last posts were just bitching and not significantly helpful.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Kercheiz

[WinterH]

Just so everyone's on the same page, above quote is not something I've said, but something said to me by SharpeXB that I replied I think buceador above quoted the post wrong

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

Removing liveries in the base install is bad because it will allow people cheating.

Indeed that’s the most important point. It makes this whole topic rather moot. 

[buceador]

7 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Just so everyone's on the same page, above quote is not something I've said, but something said to me by SharpeXB that I replied I think buceador above quoted the post wrong

My bad! I meant to quote SharpXBs original "life advice" comment!

[Beirut]

On 11/8/2023 at 9:12 AM, Northstar98 said:

And before somebody inevitably brings it up, storage space being plentiful and cheap doesn't justify why people should fill them up with files they don't necessarily need, want or use. For a fun game I suggest taking a shot everytime somebody brings that point up.

 

Start pouring... because storage is plentiful and cheap. 

 

DCS is a massive storage hog no matter what and whining about this little bit over here or that little bit over there amounts to a lot of nothing.

 

On 11/8/2023 at 9:12 AM, Northstar98 said:

I have plenty of storage space available - why does that mean I should fill it up with unnecessary files I don't need or want?

 

Because the universe was not created in such a fashion that we all get what we need or want.

 

Hence my lack of a Heatblur F-104. Sad, but I struggle through it.

 

[diego999]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If $65-$100 is a significant amount to anyone, they should maybe re-examine life’s priorities and consider improving their situation rather than worrying about computer games. 

That is the point

 

It is for me. I live in a thirld world country.

Thanks for the life lesson though.

[Galinette]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Indeed that’s the most important point. It makes this whole topic rather moot. 

No, it's actually one of the most irrelevant one. Please explain how either:

• Including only a small set of liveries in the base game, with additional downloadable livery packs
• Including only low res liveries in the base game, with additional HD livery packs

Would allow more cheating than possible today, or would prevent improving an hypothetical existing livery cheating problem by classical means such as adding liveries to IC.

In the case of the first point, yes a player without the additional livery packs would see a default livery for players using the additional ones, not a "ultra high visibility cheated livery".

In the case of the second point, it's even less relevant.

Edit : For the record, I'm using three DCS installations for various reasons such as module development on my desktop (gaming & main dev hardware) and two on my laptop (which is a PITA to upgrade for storage space) with only the required module installed on each.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Kercheiz

[Beirut]

18 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

 

Would allow more cheating than possible today, or would prevent improving an hypothetical existing livery cheating problem by classical means such as adding liveries to IC.

 

I don't MP, so I don't know how liveries could be a cheating thing, how could that happen? 

[MAXsenna]

 
I don't MP, so I don't know how liveries could be a cheating thing, how could that happen? 

If you delete the liveries in your local installation, you won't have the necessary files, and your foes might have a pink or shiny livery to you. So, no matter your opinion about disk space pricing, I'm sure you would agree and support request for a livery manager that would benefit all. And support IC support for liveries in MP.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

37 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

Would allow more cheating than possible today

Just because cheating already happens doesn’t make more cheating ok. 

38 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

Including only a small set of liveries in the base game, with additional downloadable livery packs

It would make sense for there to be a distinction between base “official” liveries (I don’t think this selection should necessarily be small) which aren’t alterable and then also have extra community made unofficial ones. The extra ones are exactly that, extra. They wouldn’t be part of the IC etc. That's exactly how the other CFS game handles this. There could indeed be some sort of manager or installer app for these, otherwise they’re just a headache to deal with. 

45 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

Including only low res liveries in the base game

These would still take up “precious” hard drive space, so why bother? It’s extra work to make them too and there are thousands of liveries in the game. Doesn’t seem too practical. Most players don’t want the game to look like garbage or see all the aircraft looking the same. This is a game about airplanes after all and the liveries are just about the most appealing graphics in the game. It’s perplexing to see this desire to remove them. 

33 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

I don't MP, so I don't know how liveries could be a cheating thing, how could that happen? 

Discussions about cheating aren’t something to engage in. But just use your imagination… altering the appearance of your own or other players aircraft is a way of cheating. Absolutely. 

[Galinette]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Discussions about cheating aren’t something to engage in.

Could you please follow your own advice?

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, Beirut said:

DCS is a massive storage hog no matter what and whining about this little bit over here or that little bit over there amounts to a lot of nothing.

 

It doesn't. Space doesn't stop mattering just because it's a certain size. If your disc is full and you need 2 GB, then the ability to remove 2 GB is useful. If you need 4 GB, it's still useful because it means it saved you from seeking 2 GB elsewhere to remove.

You're really overlooking some basic situations here. Uninstall options exist for a reason, and it's partially because managing space is a lot more sensible than buying new drives all the time.

Quote

Because the universe was not created in such a fashion that we all get what we need or want.

A bit of a weird statement. Whatever the universe is, it only makes sense to ask for something beneficial instead of sitting around lamenting that you don't have it.

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

Could you please follow your own advice?

Well in this regard it might be relevant to bring up as a potential issue. But not discussing exactly how. That’s sorta verboten. 

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well in this regard it might be relevant to bring up as a potential issue.

It's not a potential issue.

We already know what happens if a skin is missing. It is already not a cheat.

The modifications you worry about are a matter for IC to handle, and it can already handle optional downloads just fine.

[Beirut]

3 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

If you delete the liveries in your local installation, you won't have the necessary files, and your foes might have a pink or shiny livery to you. So, no matter your opinion about disk space pricing, I'm sure you would agree and support request for a livery manager that would benefit all. And support IC support for liveries in MP.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

 

Any foe who gives you a shiny pink livery can't be all bad. Kind of festive really. 

 

But I will certainly take your word for the MP issue.

[cfrag]

Personally, the whole issue of Liveries gives me the willies. And for me, it's not the storage space, bandwidth or unexpected life advice one seemingly gets when engaging discussing them.

To me the very concept of liveries is strange. The point being: I can't see the livery that my plane has - it's painted on the outside. So the point of a livery apparently is that people wear it to pose to others -- it is IMHO entirely narcissistic. And yet, I see that not only is it important to some people, and some 60-80 percent of all uploads to ED's user files are liveries, so there certainly appears to be demand; I'm not denying that. There's also incredible artwork being done, yes. Other games monetize this affliction, and - outside of modules - thankfully DCS is free of (micro-)transactions.

To me, the livery I fly in is irrelevant - out here and in-game. I don't care how my plane looks like to others, I care that I enjoy myself flying that damn thing. It's not the livery, it's the plane.

If people enjoy liveries, we should let them. If some of us are inconvenienced by their size and proliferation, I say that we should also try and be considerate. And a good compromise seems to me to make them optional (which, I believe, many are). So a compromise of less mandatory and more optional content could indeed be a good way to go. 

 

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, cfrag said:

The point being: I can't see the livery that my plane has - it's painted on the outside. So the point of a livery apparently is that people wear it to pose to others -- it is IMHO entirely narcissistic.

 

That point could be valid for those that primarily fly on multiplayer, I do only SP yet I enjoy having a variety of liveries to choose from because during a mission I like to use the external views, not all the time, but I still do it often. 

 

4 minutes ago, cfrag said:

To me, the livery I fly in is irrelevant - out here and in-game. I don't care how my plane looks like to others, I care that I enjoy myself flying that damn thing. It's not the livery, it's the plane.

when I edit a mission, the livery I use for my own plane is only one aspect, I do want a large livery selection for the AI units as well, particularly for some units that have few skins, like ships and ground units … I have downloaded lots of those from User Files, as the base game really lacks skin variety.

[Exorcet]

On 11/11/2023 at 4:55 AM, cfrag said:

Personally, the whole issue of Liveries gives me the willies. And for me, it's not the storage space, bandwidth or unexpected life advice one seemingly gets when engaging discussing them.

To me the very concept of liveries is strange. The point being: I can't see the livery that my plane has - it's painted on the outside. So the point of a livery apparently is that people wear it to pose to others -- it is IMHO entirely narcissistic. And yet, I see that not only is it important to some people, and some 60-80 percent of all uploads to ED's user files are liveries, so there certainly appears to be demand; I'm not denying that. There's also incredible artwork being done, yes. Other games monetize this affliction, and - outside of modules - thankfully DCS is free of (micro-)transactions.

To me, the livery I fly in is irrelevant - out here and in-game. I don't care how my plane looks like to others, I care that I enjoy myself flying that damn thing. It's not the livery, it's the plane.

If people enjoy liveries, we should let them. If some of us are inconvenienced by their size and proliferation, I say that we should also try and be considerate. And a good compromise seems to me to make them optional (which, I believe, many are). So a compromise of less mandatory and more optional content could indeed be a good way to go. 

 

Well a few things. First while the livery is outside, you can absolutely still see it, depending on the plane at least. You should absolutely be able to see your wingmen as well. This already means they can be useful for identification, which is true in real life. That's why roundels exist. This also implies a lot when it comes to historical accuracy. If two enemies have similar liveries that make them difficult to tell apart then you might want that in DCS to recreate the ambiguity faced by real pilots.

Then of course there is no denying that while DCS is built around combat, it's not limited to that. People make vidoes, take screenshots, or simply look at things in the game that are visually interesting. I deliberately choose liveries in single player even if no one is going to see them. Someone somewhere probably does choose a livery to show off, but I feel like that's less common in DCS than in other games ruined by microtransactions that you mentioned.

In any case, we do agree on the conclusion, some kind of livery management system seems like it would only be a good thing. More options to save space and the possibility for more liveries to be added to DCS. Everyone wins.

[RazerVon]

I feel I should re-iterate important points in one post:

1- DCS's Liveries are mandatory, and take up over 64GB of storage irrelevant if you own modules or not. This is 1 - 20 games of storage just for liveries most people don't have access to let alone would use.

2- I support a removal of the mandatory nature of these specific liveries due to the immense size they take up.
2a- I support lower-resolution low-size versions of necessary liveries for all player-controllable aircraft, say ~3 liveries per aircraft.

3- I support an in-game accessible repository for these existing liveries where players can download specific liveries.
3a- There could be resolution options as well for storage concerns as well as loading.

4- This would reduce bandwidth use for DCS download services on updates & initial installs, Steam services, and of course the user.
4a- This would allow users to still see enemy liveries in lower-resolutions in order for things to remain fair.

5- Multiplayer servers could have a mandatory list of any-resolution liveries that aren't supplied by the initial install.

If there is systems I am unaware of I apologize, these solutions can be amended for better compatibility with DCS systems.

 

Honestly, it's trolling to claim these anti-cheating solutions are cheating. Everything I listed from my initial post to present prevents cheating.

Edited November 15, 2023 by RazerVon
Additions.

[RazerVon]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:42 AM, Kercheiz said:

I summarize:

• Removing liveries in the base install is bad because it will allow people cheating.

No, allowing people not to have 64GB of liveries cannot cause cheating. If that caused cheating, then there's nothing below the liveries and is a game bug that needs fixing.
Game bugs shouldn't be left in-game if they could cause such an issue.

[MAXsenna]

@RazerVon
Well said!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, RazerVon said:

No, allowing people not to have 64GB of liveries cannot cause cheating

Sure it can. Someone can just remove all the camouflage skins for aircraft like the P-47, P-51 and MiGs etc which are all bright metal by default. Plus since the liveries aren’t controlled by the IC there is likely all sorts of mischief which can be done by altering them. 

[Tippis]

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure it can.

Not really, no. For one, it's a vanishingly small set of aircraft that don't come in dull grey colours as default. You even managed to get which ones they are wrong. For another, that would be a user error, not a cheat. You pick your skin. Or possibly, if you're doing airquake, the mission-maker picks the skin. Either way, you would know that the skin you picked might not be seen by everyone else, same as if you had picked any other custom skin, so the bonus you get for yourself is not universal.

This is already the case.
It is already not an issue.
It is just you forgetting how skins work and then blaming others for your mistake.

…and that's assuming that they deliberately choose to make the all the camo liveries optional, rather than including one or two as default or, as has also been suggested, just having them be lower-resolution. So you're inventing a non-issue based on a presumed implementation that would be inherently stupid, and thus wouldn't be the sensible one to implement to begin with.

45 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Plus since the liveries aren’t controlled by the IC there is likely all sorts of mischief which can be done by altering them. 

If this were true, then your complaint is irrelevant anyway since people would already be changing them out to something much more visible than what you pick on your end.

Optional downloads can already be handled just fine by IC.
It is already not an issue.
If you pick a skin that you have installed locally and isn't covered by IC, then see above: it is just you forgetting how skins work and then blaming others for your mistake.

[Exorcet]

On 11/15/2023 at 4:39 PM, RazerVon said:

No, allowing people not to have 64GB of liveries cannot cause cheating. If that caused cheating, then there's nothing below the liveries and is a game bug that needs fixing.
Game bugs shouldn't be left in-game if they could cause such an issue.

If anything a livery manager would make gaining advantages through skins harder as it could include features to keep the playing field level as well as give people less reason to mess with files. If we had low res liveries that were linked to their high res versions then players would be free to delete the high res ones for space without drastically changing how other aircraft are rendered on their screen.

The cheating argument is just another reason for the manager.