MagzTV Video

[KLaFaille]

 

From about 3:30 on there is the discussion on DCS and it's state of affairs.

 

Whether you care for him or not, the message is there, and there's truth in that message. So, good on him.

 

I only wish more creators would speak up and shed light on the myriad of problems and share those issues with their audiences. Maybe when it isn't just the small "vocal minority" here on the forums or on hoggit voicing concerns and the general greater fan base starts to get a thorough insight and understanding of the broken promises, lack of bug fixes, lack of progress, etc., will ED seriously start putting effort into addressing the issues plaguing DCS, some of which are years old by now.

 

 

Edited to add that the mods renamed the title of this thread, for whatever reason.

Edited June 16, 2020 by KLaFaille
Mods renamed thread title

[Mikeck]

Seems he’s complaining because the BETA patches for the BETA release of an extremely complex game have given him problems. I agree that ED need to get better at testing the beta patches pre-release so that we can actually test them....but it’s a beta man. Not sure why he doesn’t go back to stable since his problems started with the version after the stable release

[Enduro14]

This dude comes up with some dramatic title every 3 to 6 months to resurrect his channel. Never watched his channel for dcs as he is pretty low key in that subject. Won’t be missed.:thumbup:

[The_Dan]

And he blames ED for 3rd party module issues (CTD with the Viggen). It seems a lot of people do this. And the old mantra with "stable is only beta but later" isn't true anymore since at least two years. Stable didn't had the major bugs where everybody lost their minds on. Especially the people who cried excessively over the DM and Hornet radar bug should be better playing in the stable branch because these bugs didn't occur there.

[Falby]

I listened to all of it and the impression I got is that he felt his channel was being used by ED to promote a product that didn't live up to to all the hype.

He did also say that he would only play on stable now.

[valrond]

I listened to his rant last night. I didn't like it. I have never had the problems he is mentioning, and I've been using DCS since A-10 came out, before DCS World. Then you go to hoggit, and now it has become such a toxic place, nearly everything they say is negative, and the echo chamber of reddit makes it impossible to have a discussion, you get downvoted to hell. Some of them look like they want DCS to disappear.

 

The worst thing was comparing it to SC, which is a buggy mess, it's in pre alpha, and has been on pre alpha for a long, long time, it should have come out 5 years ago (I'm an original backer from november of 2012) and has earned a lot more money than ED has with their, well, pixel ships at 300-500-1000 dollars each.

[The_Dan]

On one hand the argument that one didn't encounter the bugs another one has isn't really a valid point. Most of these bugs are acknowledged by ED too. So if you don't encounter them, it doesn't mean they don't exist. On the other hand, he does this himself as he states he encounters no bugs in SC or other games.

 

He also states there are no games which messes up the install with patches but i can remember some in my steam library that do (Fallout 3 and NV, some TW, X series and some others i can't remember off the top of my head). From my point of view every open world game, i count DCS in this genre, has to deal with bugs a lot. It seems that's a downside of every complex open world game. EVE Online has had a bug too which would make the Windows installation useless so you had to reinstall your operating system (i think DCS has one time had a similar bug).

 

He was, so it seems, a bit unlucky with his DCS installation and above average lucky with other games. He has to account then, that there are people where it is the other way around. Nevertheless that's no excuse for the bugs that are still in DCS and they have to be fixed. And i think a few days of internal testing before rolling out a patch to the open beta isn't a bad idea in eather case. But i think MagzTV and the hoggit community are overreacting here.

[jasonbirder]

And he blames ED for 3rd party module issues (CTD with the Viggen). It seems a lot of people do this. And the old mantra with "stable is only beta but later" isn't true anymore since at least two years. Stable didn't had the major bugs where everybody lost their minds on. Especially the people who cried excessively over the DM and Hornet radar bug should be better playing in the stable branch because these bugs didn't occur there.

 

 

You mean apart from the bit where AI planes crash into you/other AI planes/other assets making a substantial proportion of missions/campaigns completely unplayable...ditto the borked Fround Unit pathfinding...

You know game breaking bugs like that in stable?

[stormrider]

He said what most of us that are here longer wanted to say.

[The_Dan]

I try again with cared reading (or whatever the correct term in english is) and point you to my statement that you seem to have missed (on purpose):

Nevertheless that's no excuse for the bugs that are still in DCS and they have to be fixed.

But the current outcry was on the last OB patch that borked the DM and Hornet Radar. These issues (and many others) weren't in the stable branch. And got fixed a day after release. So, as you may notice, i too am saying that this problems shouldn't happen at all (as they are easy to spot on short testing) but i'm saying

i think MagzTV and the hoggit community are overreacting here.

 

I have less to no problems in my missions and in the missions i play currently. Though that doesn't mean there are no problems with AI. There are problems since LOMAC. And some mission builders are a bit too confident in the AI as they build their missions and rely on workarounds that they put together and heavy scripting. There wasn't a single build ever where every mission with such heavy scripted envoirement in a campaign worked flawless.

 

To be again clear here (please don't try to overread) the only thing here to blame the mission builders is to put too much trust in ED to sort out the AI problems. But there are plenty of missions where AI is used in a manner that doesn't get affected too much by random patches. For more complicated AI tasks in missions i would wait until ED has fixed the issues there. And i would appreciate that this would be an high priority item on the list. DCS is not ready for the high quality missions some talented guys are building now. That's an issue. But if you know it, you can handle it in your missions and ocercome many problems that many missions have.

 

And i have games i can't play as intended because of major gameplay issues aside from DCS. Currently the Skaven in TW:WH 2 are an example where special buldings and abilities from Ikrit Claw don't work and there is no hotfix in sight. So what MagzTV says in his statement, that DCS is an exception with such issues is just not true.

[Eviscerador]

His opinion is duly noted.

 

Now if you excuse me, I have to go back to my Hornet cockpit. That NTTR training mission is not going to fly itself.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

One of the problems I see with this kind of spoiled child runt, either YT or written post somewhere, is they through the s**t on the fan to spread everywhere but when those bugs or whatever problem get sorted out they don't do the same and with the same vehemence the other way to say "it's working now and the result is good", on the contrary the "filth" keeps there for ever even though it's no longer true, but many people overall feeling is the crap it's still there because the runt-ers didn't get rid of it.

 

 

I mean, it's not like DCS Open Beta doesn't get bugs in every patch, of course it does and sometimes they can be anoying. But last OB patch passed into release was quite nice in everything, performance was better than ever, new features were released and many bugs got squeezed. Right now stable which stuck to that last OB is a very good version, I believe. But for OB users that stability lasted quite a short time with the next new patch, so maybe if you aren't willing to put up those bugs just use release version and stop the flaming posts, videos or whatever.

 

S!

[jasonbirder]

Right now stable which stuck to that last OB is a very good version, I believe

 

 

You believe???

Feel free to tell me which currently available paid for (IE: SUpported by ED themselves) DLC Campaigns are currently working in stable...

Then assuming the overwhelming majority of them are broken (Clue - they are) tell me when there is likely to be a hotfix for that? (Clue NO word from ED)

 

 

Given the above...why are you so vocal about the fact everyones current problems are simply caused by using the Open Beta Branch when they obviously aren't...

[jasonbirder]

And some mission builders are a bit too confident in the AI as they build their missions and rely on workarounds that they put together and heavy scripting.

 

 

Damn those Mission Builders foolishly confident that an AI wingman will be able to taxi out of its own HAS without crashing...if they'd only not put in such complicated scripted behaviour...everything would be OK!

[sora_061]

Stable is more broken than Open Beta now. Just look at AI taxi, AI pathfindings etc.

 

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk

[forgeknight]

I agree there are currently some issues that need to be addressed. But this is Magz playing a tune for his Hoggit fan base. I have said this before, just because they are vocal doesn't mean they are the majority. ED needs to ignore the reddit groups.

[The_Dan]

Damn those Mission Builders foolishly confident that an AI wingman will be able to taxi out of its own HAS without crashing...if they'd only not put in such complicated scripted behaviour...everything would be OK!

To be again clear here (please don't try to overread) the only thing here to blame the mission builders is to put too much trust in ED to sort out the AI problems.

You have clearly some huge issues with reading and understanding, so i try to put out a more clear statement in the most easy words possible for me (as i'm not a native speaker):

Problems with AI is not the mission builders fault. It is EDs fault.

But it is not true that other games do not have similar problems.

It is not true that stable has every bug of open beta only later.

It is not true that other games fix issues faster.

[DBFlyguy]

You have clearly some huge issues with reading and understanding, so i try to put out a more clear statement in the most easy words possible for me (as i'm not a native speaker):

 

But it is not true that other games do not have similar problems.

It is not true that stable has every bug of open beta only later.

It is not true that other games fix issues faster.

 

Three patently false statements. Do you actually use any other sim or game software besides DCS, it doesn't seem like it if you making blatantly false statements like this, especially that last one...like seriously man. :no_sad:

[SmirkingGerbil]

So I got to the part (after listening to 4 minutes about his office) where he mentioned he reviewed, noted the issues. Same things that have been noted in the release notes.

 

Then he states "3 days later they released it . . . " and he goes on. Not once as far as I listened did he mention BETA. I stopped listening. He was just going to have his session to complain, that's all the diatribe was.

 

Maybe he mentioned it later, but 7 mins in, you get nothing about BETA.

 

Flying my P-47, and having a blast. Keeping track of known issues in the Bug list, factoring all that in, and still enjoying my BETA P-47

 

I also installed and am playing the Channel map that same day. I run both Stable and OB, both are working fine, logging in is working fine. Account profile is fine. I am making missions with Triggers for my P-47 working fine. WWII assets are tracking and using roads fine.

 

Maybe he jacked something up rearranging his office???

Edited June 15, 2020 by SmirkingGerbil

[CarbonFox]

He made some valid points, particularly about the lack of competition. Since 2.5.6, it's felt like each update one big step forward is made followed by a few steps back with things becoming broken. The Hornet's radar still being a mess for example.

[diogofalcao]

Some people do positive marketing, I prefer this band wagon. I am very satisfied with all my purchases. These guys (ED) has expertise on the subject, more than a decade doing flight simulation I would say they do it pretty good. Errors will happen, it's a constant development.

 

I am sure it's expensive to develop all these modules, so if you want the company to improve of course you have to be vocal, people who love will also criticize and that's part of the business. Tell what you think, companies will try to have your trust and then you buy the modules if they are good.

 

I am honestly very satisfied with the investment on my hobby, it gives me thousands of fun time per module (no other game can provide you that).

 

Of course they need to improve, business is a constant growth or else you die, they will always need to improve, perfect companies do not exist.

 

What I request is just much, much more transparenc. Do news videos on youtube telling about development, people like it, tell them the challenges. Be honest with what when wrong and why, people will trust you more like that. Show us all the research needed, people will see why some things takes longer.

 

You can give ETAs, just inform em in advance it's not happening when things go wrong, it's ok. You also need to have more restrict partnerships, some of third parties takes long time to fix things. Do contracts with SLAs, we accept things going wrong but taking months to fix bugs customers will not be happy.

 

You are on market for more than a decade, overall the player base trust ED, including me. And that's why we will always criticize and wait for a feedback on the investment. We do it because we care.

 

I honestly really, really like Bohemia's Interactive business model, they used to be a small company back in the days. Arma 3 IMO is still very modern and with ongoing support, they create DLC's and also offer the mods (with SDK) possibility. There are many many aircrafts in the history, I am sure ED will always have

 

planes to create. Or maybe they could also focus on some of the core features missing. Like Vulkan, combat scenario, ATC, sell them as DLC's, np about that.

Edited June 15, 2020 by diogofalcao

[The_Dan]

Three patently false statements. Do you actually use any other sim or game software besides DCS, it doesn't seem like it if you making blatantly false statements like this, especially that last one...like seriously man. :no_sad:

 

Why is it false?

The Bugs with DM and Radar are fixed in current OB so will not be introduced in stable. To take the most recent example. A lot of the bugs encountered the past month didn't make their way in the stable. Though there are exceptions which i admit. But it is still not true that every bug made it into stable.

 

In the C&C remastered games from this month the path finding for the units, especially the harvesters are still horrible. A bug not fixed since 25 years now. The bug i mentioned from TW:WH2 is where the warp sphere bugs cities with heros in garrison is at least 5 month old. You can't use this cities until you completely whipe out the faction that city belongs to. With the new patch few weeks ago, they introduced additional bugs for Ikrits special buldings in Skavenblight instead of fixing the old bug. That game is unplayable for me more than 9 month now. I have random connection problems in Monster Hunter World since release two years ago, that prevents succesful multiplayer games regularly. And the new Add-On released some month ago made it worse. ARMA 2 & 3 still have CTDs and other things like unusable save games.

And Star Citizen mentioned by MagzTV is just a big bugfest and times between updates are very long. Nice for him, that he doesn't get CTDs and all the freezes and endless load screens in SC, but i have this nearly every time i play it. Skyrim, Fallout 3, NV and 4 are full of unresolved bugs that likely never get fixed as the devs moved on to Fallout 76 and guess what? They made a bug hell out of it.

 

If you have a complex game that doesn't has any bugs, nice for you. But that doesn't invalidate my statements.

[DBFlyguy]

Why is it false?

The Bugs with DM and Radar are fixed in current OB so will not be introduced in stable. To take the most recent example. A lot of the bugs encountered the past month didn't make their way in the stable. Though there are exceptions which i admit. But it is still not true that every bug made it into stable.

 

In the C&C remastered games from this month the path finding for the units, especially the harvesters are still horrible. A bug not fixed since 25 years now. The bug i mentioned from TW:WH2 is where the warp sphere bugs cities with heros in garrison is at least 5 month old. You can't use this cities until you completely whipe out the faction that city belongs to. With the new patch few weeks ago, they introduced additional bugs for Ikrits special buldings in Skavenblight instead of fixing the old bug. That game is unplayable for me more than 9 month now. I have random connection problems in Monster Hunter World since release two years ago, that prevents succesful multiplayer games regularly. And the new Add-On released some month ago made it worse. ARMA 2 & 3 still have CTDs and other things like unusable save games.

And Star Citizen mentioned by MagzTV is just a big bugfest and times between updates are very long. Nice for him, that he doesn't get CTDs and all the freezes and endless load screens in SC, but i have this nearly every time i play it. Skyrim, Fallout 3, NV and 4 are full of unresolved bugs that likely never get fixed as the devs moved on to Fallout 76 and guess what? They made a bug hell out of it.

 

If you have a complex game that doesn't has any bugs, nice for you. But that doesn't invalidate my statements.

 

The stable may not have as many bugs but there are still several including with modules like the F-5 that have been reported for years yet they are still left unresolved. This is a fact whether you agree or not. If your post doesn't get deleted since you specifically name other games...I'll honestly be shocked since ED doesn't exercise any kind of tolerance in that department... BUT, I will say another air combat sim that happens to also be based in Russia squashes verified bugs in literal hours with multiple hotfixes after reaching out to their customers for feedback as needed on a consistent basis.

 

Also, several other "Early Access" games (think some pretty popular modern tactical FPS and WWII FPS titles) with much smaller teams than ED are also able to squash pretty complicated bugs within a couple weeks (if not days) time frame. You stating no one is fixing bugs quicker than ED is just patently false.

 

I get wanting to defend ED but you need to at least use some factual information.

 

ED and ED alone have created this situation they find themselves in. Until they are ready to take actual responsibility for that and make consistent positive changes... things are only gonna get worse.

 

I doubt Magz and Jabbers will be the last content creators to speak out.

[SmirkingGerbil]

 

. . .

 

ED and ED alone have created this situation they find themselves in. Until they are ready to take actual responsibility for that and make consistent positive changes... things are only gonna get worse.

 

I doubt Magz and Jabbers will be the last content creators to speak out.

 

Been flying since 2011. My join date here is when I started flying non-Steam version. I started with the KA-50, and have added many many modules since, WWII assets, all the maps, and a kickstarter to boot with the WWII birds.

 

I have seen nothing but consistent progress for 9 years.

Edited June 15, 2020 by SmirkingGerbil
spelling

[The_Dan]

You stating no one is fixing bugs quicker than ED is just patently false.

I never ever did say that! You need to understand the things i write as they are written. MagzTV states that no other game is as bugged as DCS and no other company needs as long to fix bugs as ED. I just say that this is not true and that other games with high complexity do have bugs and other companies do struggle to get them fixed as well. I never said ED is the best company in this scope. You misread my statements and i think it is on purpose.

 

I even can't get my head wrapped around how you get that out of my words? It is like we talking about a blue t-shirt and i said "hey, this t-shirt isn't green." And you are like "Oh you just said this t-shirt is red! But it is clearly not red, how stupid! Everything you say is wrong!"