Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?

[Cornelius]

Decoy, please don't forget the primary reason you were hired in the first place. Something to do with Prowler having an outburst and threatening legal action against redditors?

 

Please do not try to tell the community that the "new coder" Razbam hired was for any other reason than to pull the Harrier kicking and screaming out of EA. I actually worked with one in a side channel for a few months in 2019, because you guys told him to talk to me, to parse through bugs and inaccurate systems modeling (GPWS, Navigation, etc.) that needed to get fixed for certain tutorials to be able to get released.

 

Not any of the long list of outstanding bugs from 2017. No, those weren't high priority enough to even put on the list.

 

Just the ones that were needed to be able to finally get Harrier "done", and the only time Zeus wanted to hear about anything else was when enough people went unheard on the forums for so long about issues like the ASL or CCIP-to-AUTO modes that it suddenly warranted correction (and if I recall correctly, people were banned for complaining about those, too).

 

I still remember when Zeus said in May 2018 that he wanted the Harrier out of early access by June, and was happy if only half the training missions would be done by then. Does anyone remember how many features were missing in June 2018? That was the standard they wanted to ship with.

 

Seems to be a pattern here, and you can't lay it solely at the feet of the behavior of the people on this forum in the past 6 months...

 

 

I'm afraid your little history excursion won't change his mind. But thanks for these insights! It fits

perfectly into the picture.

[SGT Coyle]

you're not actually interested in airplanes at all are you

you just need a parent figure to keep giving you attention

 

any of you who needs someone else to dripfeed you some feeling of self worth is sick in the head and should not be encouraged

 

grow up and dont bring your own personal issues into product improvement

 

or okay if you need an emotional service, go hire someone who actually offers that sort of service

dont turn this airplane sim into your personal psych therapy

 

 

I feel hurt and afraid.

[tugais]

Just wow.....

 

Didn't realise that Razbam has so many modules under table to be put on it....

 

Yeah, don't forget the four helos, the Bo-105, a heavy US helicopter and two medium european helicopters. They have a lot on their plate.

 

Source : Air Combat Sim Podcast #9 transcription

 

Edit : Also, is the -5 mentioned by Decoy a typo ?

[=DECOY=]

Yeah, don't forget the four helos, the Bo-105, a heavy US helicopter and two medium european helicopters. They have a lot on their plate.

 

Source : Air Combat Sim Podcast #9 transcription

 

Edit : Also, is the -5 mentioned by Decoy a typo ?

 

 

The ONLY helicopter being worked on for a while at razbam is the BO 105.

 

And yes the -5 is not going to happen for a while due to two factors. 1 being the virus and security restrictions. And the other being the radar not being ready.

 

My advice would be forget about the -5 for a few years

[Fjordmonkey]

Easier to adopt a "It'll get here when it does"-mindset anyway. There's a reason as to why I'm the Arch-bishop of the Church of Two Weeks™.

 

I waited 15 years for the Viper in DCS. I can wait for a LONG time for it to be as done as it can. Same with every other module in production, regardless of hypefactor.

[nessuno0505]

In a different simulation environment ilke the civil one, a module like this would have liked: It won't be a study level like pmdg and such, but It would have had its fans. But here people are suited at a-10c, ka-50, Hornet, Tomcat. Even a "simple" module like a Sabre is deeply simulated with fine details. Here, with the exception of fc3, there's no place for slightly less or a bit less of quality. Razbam, polychop and such should understand that and conform, otherwise I doubt their life will be easy in this place.

 

the -5 is not going to happen for a while due to the radar not being ready.

 

What about the strike eagle? A radar Is there too or not?

Edited September 12, 2020 by nessuno0505

[SGT Coyle]

Razbam did, i made it and guess what it got met with nothing but hostility on a weekly basis. no mater what was posted on it, someone will always complain.

Probably because there was no progress. I posted a long list of missing key binds and they classified as "Low Pri" (understandable), "New Feature Request"(infuriating), and had status of "Working on it," for two years.

Same as everything else Razbam related. it doesn't matter what they do they get nothing but grief and everything posted gets twisted one way or another.

I believe you would be talking about posts showing off new projects. Maybe how the pilot body is coming, while people have been clambering for fixes to old bug reports, or acknowledgement of bug reports at all.

Does Razbam modules still have bugs

I believe that point was made several pages back.

This is why i stepped down as the Razbam CM, this forum has turned toxic over the last 6 months and its got to STOP !

I was glad to hear you stepped down. I thought you had gotten a raw deal.

You were in an impossible position. Being the middle man between an annoyed public and a company that was ignoring them.

 

I wish you luck with whatever your doing.

[TLTeo]

AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away

Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh

Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off

 

AMX - just needs coding and will be in the next 2 years

Bronco- not in the pipline, was a tease and will be years

Lightning - best plane - im doing the textures for this one, likely next year

Canberra - is AI

F-100 - just a tease, its NOT coming for many years !

Mirage 3,Super Etendard s- still not sure when but at first they are ai !

Strike Eagle in modelling stage and will be the next module

Mig-23, with carlos and a year off

Bo-105, this is not our module we will look at coding it when its modelled

Ia-58- AI

Sea Harrier, ai for Falklands then will be a module

A-29 for the Ecuadorian air force and yes its coming to DCS.

 

 

basically you are looking at these coming in stages before you all get your knickers in a twist !

F15sE, Tucano and mig 23 re the next planes coming from razbam.

 

Then and only after the above are finished it will be :EE Lightning, Sea Harrier and the BO-105.

 

The rest are way down the line.

 

 

So you're going to release the Lightning in one year, after the SE, Tucano and Flogger. Four modules in one year, and seven in two years, assuming the AMX comes out after the FRS1 and Bo-105. Are you really, really sure (to use your words) that you estimated the duration of those stages correctly? So far you have released roughly one EA module every two years.

 

 

I really, really want you guys to succeed because I would love to fly most aircraft on that list. I'm legitimately excited by those projects and wish you the best, but if you set yourself utterly impossible goals, there is no way you will ever deliver.

Edited September 12, 2020 by TLTeo

[F900EX]

AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away

Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh

Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off

 

AMX - just needs coding and will be in the next 2 years

Bronco- not in the pipline, was a tease and will be years

Lightning - best plane - im doing the textures for this one, likely next year

Canberra - is AI

F-100 - just a tease, its NOT coming for many years !

Mirage 3,Super Etendard s- still not sure when but at first they are ai !

Strike Eagle in modelling stage and will be the next module

Mig-23, with carlos and a year off

Bo-105, this is not our module we will look at coding it when its modelled

Ia-58- AI

Sea Harrier, ai for Falklands then will be a module

A-29 for the Ecuadorian air force and yes its coming to DCS.

 

 

basically you are looking at these coming in stages before you all get your knickers in a twist !

F15sE, Tucano and mig 23 re the next planes coming from razbam.

 

Then and only after the above are finished it will be :EE Lightning, Sea Harrier and the BO-105.

 

The rest are way down the line.

 

 

 

 

Absolute madness lol

 

 

 

F15sE, Tucano are 5 year projects before they ever get 100% completed If at all ....... That's right kiddies keep throwing your $$$$ into projects that have unrealistic timelines to be completed, YOU KNOW THIS GOING IN but you still pay and then cry about it later.

 

 

 

When I look at this RAZBAM need to be more responsible with silly teasers of what's coming down the line and focus and finishing modules.

 

 

 

And where's ED in all this...???? Staying silent as usual just raking in the %%% $$$$ and laughing all the way to the bank your are expense LOL :megalol:

 

 

Stop paying for Alpha/Beta modules from unreliable 3rd parties that have a history of selling you nothing but unrealistic timelines for completed modules.

[Fjordmonkey]

Stop paying for Alpha/Beta modules from unreliable 3rd parties that have a history of selling you nothing but unrealistic timelines for completed modules. [/b]

 

 

Others spend their leftover money on going out with the boys and gain nothing but bad memories, regrets and worse hangovers and the absolute s**ts due to a bad kebab. I spend my leftover money on modules I feel is interesting enough for me to spend money on, and hope that they one day become as bug free as it is possible to get them.

 

That's why the Viper was a first-day purchase for me, even though I knew full well it would be VERY rough around the edges. That's also why I bought the Harrier, which is the aircraft that has given me quite a lot of fun, excitement and outright hysterical giggles, despite/because of the bugs it has.

 

If one can't foot the bill for a module that turns out to be trash or not the right kind of module, maybe people should re-evaluate their purchase-habits. Just a thought.

[F900EX]

Others spend their leftover money on going out with the boys and gain nothing but bad memories, regrets and worse hangovers and the absolute s**ts due to a bad kebab. I spend my leftover money on modules I feel is interesting enough for me to spend money on, and hope that they one day become as bug free as it is possible to get them.

 

That's why the Viper was a first-day purchase for me, even though I knew full well it would be VERY rough around the edges. That's also why I bought the Harrier, which is the aircraft that has given me quite a lot of fun, excitement and outright hysterical giggles, despite/because of the bugs it has.

 

If one can't foot the bill for a module that turns out to be trash or not the right kind of module, maybe people should re-evaluate their purchase-habits. Just a thought.

 

 

Indeed, but you only need to look at the last 50 pages and see many people complaining, not just this thread but many many others all the way to ED's modules. My point is they know this going in paying for an uncompleted module, demand the next module while the 1st one they paid for is unfinished, developers see the $$$$ potential on cash today for something they don't have to deliver on and its another endless cycle of these threads, you paid for something that's unfinished and you pre-paid for a mod that's not released lol ..... how do players expect anything good to come that from scenario? This is my whole point if you don't like it stop pre-paying and in directly pressuring them to release early mods

Edited September 12, 2020 by F900EX

[UncleZam]

That's why the Viper was a first-day purchase for me, even though I knew full well it would be VERY rough around the edges. That's also why I bought the Harrier, which is the aircraft that has given me quite a lot of fun, excitement and outright hysterical giggles, despite/because of the bugs it has.

 

I agree on this. Harrier is for me one of the most interesting aircrafts and maybe the best looking cockpit in high res VR. It still has many bugs remaining, but I am hopeful after today seeing long list of fixes in release pipeline.

 

I also agree with some other posters that this project does not meet the criteria of professional software development. There may be many reasons, for example under resourcing.

[Fjordmonkey]

Indeed, but you only need to look at the last 50 pages and see many people complaining, not just this thread but many many others all the way to ED's modules. My point is they know this going in paying for an uncompleted module, demand the next module while the 1st one they paid for is unfinished, developers see the $$$$ potential on cash today for something they don't have to deliver on and its another endless cycle of these threads, you paid for somethings that's unfinished and you pre-paid for a mod that's not released lol

 

Of course I know I'm paying for an unfinished module. So did everyone else that paid for any module in EA. Or at least they SHOULD know that they did, and they SHOULD also know just what that entails: You're buying an unfinished module on the promise that it will, some day, be in as finished state as possible within the living and ever developing framework that is DCS. Just like you do when you preorder any other piece of software or hardware. The risk you take is that it'll NEVER be finished or you have another VEAO-case.

 

If you find that such a risk is too much for you, stop spending money on EA-modules. But also remember that if you DO just that, you also have no business complaining about the cost of it.

 

I bought both the Harrier and the Viper as EA-modules. I did so because I'm a cheap bastard even though I have enough disposable income to buy them multiple times at full price if I wanted to. I also did it to support the developers of a product I found interesting and worth the risk of EA'ing the product they push. Hell, I'll even buy another RB-module while in EA if said module is interesting enough to me, regardless of how many pages of whining and griping goes on here, despite much of it being very warranted.

 

There's an old saying: If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. In DCS-terms that means if you can't foot the bill or take the risk of buying an EA module, stop buying EA modules.

[Fjordmonkey]

I also agree with some other posters that this project does not meet the criteria of professional software development. There may be many reasons, for example under resourcing.

 

To be honest, Razbams greatest failure, if you want to call it that, has been the lack of communication and lack of presence here on these forums. Not the bugs and issues themselves (that's a byproduct that certainly doesn't help, of ocurse). I've dealt with customers for a LOT of years working in the IT-biz, and I've learned a few things about handling customer communications. First and foremost is this:

 

A customer that knows what's going on and is kept well informed of current state and the development on a case might be pissed off because it's not sorted yet, but at least he'll know that it's still being handled!

 

A customer that knows what's going on will, in my experience with them, understand that things do take time and that not all issues are easily fixed. Yes, some will flip their lids regardless, but the vast majority of them will behave like sensible people. This does put more pressure on your side of things in order to fix things as fast as humanly possible, but that's how it is.

 

I can understand why Decoy didn't want to be a CM anymore on these boards. I really do. It's a thankless role that has you standing in the middle of a pool of ClF3 that never stop being both on fire and spewing out the really nasty byproducts that it does when it's on fire (and it's ALWAYS on fire). Yes, it's a job that he might have chosen to undertake and got paid for, but it's not for everyone. It's damn hard to have to face the horde day in and day out with only the occational post being anything other than having raw sewage spewed in your face. I really don't know how NineLine and Bignewy actually manages to not lamp everyone over the face with the leading-edge flap of a Viper on a daily basis.

[CoBlue]

AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away

Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh

Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off

AMX - just needs coding and will be in the next 2 years

Bronco- not in the pipline, was a tease and will be years

Lightning - best plane - im doing the textures for this one, likely next year

Canberra - is AI

F-100 - just a tease, its NOT coming for many years !

Mirage 3,Super Etendard s- still not sure when but at first they are ai !

Strike Eagle in modelling stage and will be the next module

Mig-23, with carlos and a year off

Bo-105, this is not our module we will look at coding it when its modelled

Ia-58- AI

Sea Harrier, ai for Falklands then will be a module

A-29 for the Ecuadorian air force and yes its coming to DCS.

basically you are looking at these coming in stages before you all get your knickers in a twist !

F15sE, Tucano and mig 23 re the next planes coming from razbam.

Then and only after the above are finished it will be :EE Lightning, Sea Harrier and the BO-105.

The rest are way down the line.

Are all going to be FC3?

 

Or do you aim for half-baked "sikrit" systems like the AV8B, after 3.5 years, 35% done & out of EA, without any customer-care or support?

[Cornelius]

Money is no object and in RL I'm Scrooge McDuck

 

You sound like you are already out with the boys and will have kebab later again...

[Jester2138]

AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away

Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh

Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off

 

AMX - just needs coding and will be in the next 2 years

Bronco- not in the pipline, was a tease and will be years

Lightning - best plane - im doing the textures for this one, likely next year

Canberra - is AI

F-100 - just a tease, its NOT coming for many years !

Mirage 3,Super Etendard s- still not sure when but at first they are ai !

Strike Eagle in modelling stage and will be the next module

Mig-23, with carlos and a year off

Bo-105, this is not our module we will look at coding it when its modelled

Ia-58- AI

Sea Harrier, ai for Falklands then will be a module

A-29 for the Ecuadorian air force and yes its coming to DCS.

 

 

basically you are looking at these coming in stages before you all get your knickers in a twist !

F15sE, Tucano and mig 23 re the next planes coming from razbam.

 

Then and only after the above are finished it will be :EE Lightning, Sea Harrier and the BO-105.

 

The rest are way down the line.

 

Will these release in a similarly terrible state as the Harrier, and will they also spend three years in Early Access, only to be moved to "Full Release" with dozens of major bugs and incomplete features?

 

So far, I have every reason to believe the answer is YES, and I won't be buying any of them.

[Fjordmonkey]

You sound like you are already out with the boys and will have kebab later again...

 

Nope, I've long since stopped such nonsense. If I wanted to spend money to see someone try to score for 90 minutes, I'd just turn on the TV and watch soccer.

 

And yes, I'm a Scrooge when it comes to spending money on things that aren't neccesary. Why should I pay more than I'm willing to?

 

Besides...your attempt to insult me needs work. You've got to try harder than that, my friend ;)

[Cornelius]

This was not meant as an insult. You seemed to be more and more obsessed about something. After all, it's Saturday night. You can't be serious about the money part. There are people for whom even the 35 $/Euro sale price has a certain value.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Cornelius

[nessuno0505]

There's nothing wrong in buying EA modules. I never did it, but it's ok to do so if you want. I usually wait for a module to be out of EA before buying, but I won't buy av-8b or m2000. According to the list posted and the time frame scheduled, it's obvious we will never have a study level module from RB, but only "fc3-style half-baked sikrit systems 35% done after 3 years" and then considered finished. Now we know RB intentions, their plan is clearly stated. Do you want to spend your money in this EA? It's your choice. I'll never mess my dcs experience with that stuff. Maybe I'll buy the viper, even if unfunished, since I know it will be completed one day, after a proper amount of time.

 

I'm a bit sad since I believed there was a quality standard in dcs, instead it's like x-p1ane: you have to check carefully what you are buying since there are excellent modules besides arcade-like stuff all graphics and poor systems. Fortunately my dcs keeps the standard for now, but I have to be careful where to put my money.

Edited September 12, 2020 by nessuno0505

[statrekmike]

Indeed, but you only need to look at the last 50 pages and see many people complaining, not just this thread but many many others all the way to ED's modules. My point is they know this going in paying for an uncompleted module, demand the next module while the 1st one they paid for is unfinished, developers see the $$$$ potential on cash today for something they don't have to deliver on and its another endless cycle of these threads, you paid for something that's unfinished and you pre-paid for a mod that's not released lol ..... how do players expect anything good to come that from scenario? This is my whole point if you don't like it stop pre-paying and in directly pressuring them to release early mods

 

 

There are some that keep coming into this thread with this same line of thinking and while it isn't outright correct, it is also not the whole picture.

 

I have been playing DCS for going on a decade. I have bought just about every module with only a few specific exceptions. I know that when I buy a module, I am more than likely getting a early access product with the promise that it will eventually be a full, complete release. Obviously sometimes things go very bad (VEAO and the Hawk module is a good example) but for the most part, ED, Heatblur, and Deka have been good about (and this is key here) demonstrating their willingness to complete the modules they make via steady updates, (at least) decent enough communication, and generally positive, non-adversarial, usually professional behavior when faced with the occasional controversy. When I bought the F-16 module, I knew I was getting a extremely unfinished aircraft but I didn't freak out about it because I also know that ED is quite likely to finish it. I know that they went into the project with the information and SME support they need to get it up to standard. The same can be said of the F-14 and Viggen by Heatblur. Heck, even Deka has come in with not only a pretty solid module but also a strong amount of early access support that has meaningfully pushed the aircraft towards a complete state.

 

The point I am making here is that for the most part, while it can be sometimes frustrating to wait, ED, Heatblur, and Deka have managed to release things into early access that one can be reasonably confident will get finished. They all seem to be shooting for a similar level of fidelity and sometimes they even go above and beyond what is in DCS's core (which is another very important detail in all this). It might take a while but buying in to early access with them isn't a obvious risk.

 

RAZBAM is a different case. When they were gearing up to release the Mirage, they marketed it as if it were a full, DCS level simulation of a Mirage 2000C-RDI model but when it came out, it started to become pretty clear that RAZBAM's lack of support from Dassault, the French Air forces, and even SME's just wasn't where it needed to be. They filled in a lot of gaps themselves and we got something pretty similar to the "frankenviper" in the other combat sim. Heck, they even used performance charts from said other sim to build the Mirage module.)

 

We didn't really get a full idea of how far off it was until the AdA actually stepped in and helped them out much, much later. Had RAZBAM not been approached, the Mirage would not have met the standards set by its own store-page.

 

With the Harrier release, we saw a lot of this play out yet again. Its initial release had a lot of bugs but that was forgivable. The big issue was really that it didn't get as much post-release support as other modules from other developers regularly got. It would get a patch here and there but things that other DCS developers would handle without snark and complaint were often somewhat drama filled with RAZBAM. They (like VEAO before them) would often retreat behind "DCS updates will just break everything anyway so why bother fixing this or that". People would point out bugs or even incomplete or absent functionality and RAZBAM would give us a a line like "ED needs to do that" or something to that effect.

 

When they released the MiG-19, even that involved some drama as the RAZBAM developers were pretty quick to complain about the standards that ED had set for something beyond a early access release. They seriously thought that the MiG-19 was a full release when it first came out. Let that roll around in one's mind for a while. It was horribly buggy and had some serious, obvious flight model problems but as far as RAZBAM was concerned, they felt it was feature complete and got offended publicly when told that was not the case.

 

Alongside the MiG-19 itself, its release also heralded some community upset about the state of the Harrier. Keep in mind, this was last year. Pretty much the same upset we are seeing now is only a repeat of what has already happened last year. During the MiG-19 release, I can't be absolutely sure and won't assert that it is true but I strongly suspect that ED talked to them about the Harrier's state because they seemed to come back at the Harrier with some degree of renewed vigor and didn't seem so bitter about having to do so (At least publicly). Again. this is my theory so take it for what it is.

 

Sadly, here we are again. Only now we have some statements on the Discord from RAZBAM that indicates that they genuinely consider the harrier "feature complete" even though it not only technically isn't but is (more importantly) quite incomplete with what is there. I am not so much talking about issues that could fall into secrecy territory. I am talking about just things like how the knobs and switches function and basic stuff like that.

 

Looking at their discord, we are again starting to get a picture of what happened and it is looking like the Mirage all over again. It is my guess that they took on the module without having a plan to get all the information they would need. They did the best they could with what they could get their hands on but it clearly wasn't quite enough. Sadly, I don't see a scenario where the USMC or Boeing will come in and help them out like the AdA eventually did with the Mirage. What we have is probably about as much as they could do with the information they were willing and/or able to go out and get.

 

So here we are. The cycle repeats itself and while folks who have (sometimes very patiently) been waiting for a complete module are still waiting for some pretty significant and long acknowledged issues to get fixed, we are also yet again being told to shut up because early access is what it is. Well, the Harrier isn't in early access anymore and we are still waiting for early access problems to get solved. What else should we do here? What other choice do we have but to speak up a bit (hopefully politely) and hope that ED puts them to task?

 

I have said this before but I think the real thing at stake here is not the Harrier module but every other complex module that RAZBAM makes in the future. Knowing what we know from the release of the Mirage and the Harrier, isn't it about time we get a clear, unmistakable idea of what RAZBAM considers a complete module? Isn't it time they tell us before releasing a module what they were able to get in terms of information and how that will translate into a complete module? Perhaps it is time for ED to set firmer, stricter rules when it comes to third party project approval?

 

This probably comes off in text as more hostile than it is in my head as I type it. Please note that I am not saying that RAZBAM is "scamming" us or that they are intentionally and maliciously misleading us. I think they genuinely have a standard they shoot for internally but perhaps that standard isn't what ED and other third parties have led us to expect. This current debacle is going to keep repeating (and probably for future RAZBAM modules as well) until they either make it clear that they are working towards a lower level of fidelity or they find some way to reach the standard set by their peers. I for one hope that this is the last time we need to (as long-time Harrier owners) ask why we have not seen significant, consistent updates.

[Terrorban]

AV/8B+ -prob 3 years away

Mig-19S - not going to be soon its not a great plane tbh

Mirage 2000-5 - when ED sorts out ground radar yes but again a few years off

 

AMX - just needs coding and will be in the next 2 years

Bronco- not in the pipline, was a tease and will be years

Lightning - best plane - im doing the textures for this one, likely next year

Canberra - is AI

F-100 - just a tease, its NOT coming for many years !

Mirage 3,Super Etendard s- still not sure when but at first they are ai !

Strike Eagle in modelling stage and will be the next module

Mig-23, with carlos and a year off

Bo-105, this is not our module we will look at coding it when its modelled

Ia-58- AI

Sea Harrier, ai for Falklands then will be a module

A-29 for the Ecuadorian air force and yes its coming to DCS.

 

 

basically you are looking at these coming in stages before you all get your knickers in a twist !

F15sE, Tucano and mig 23 re the next planes coming from razbam.

 

Then and only after the above are finished it will be :EE Lightning, Sea Harrier and the BO-105.

 

The rest are way down the line.

I do appreciate you showing us your future plan of projects. Can you please discuss more about your future plans of current AV-8B?

 

What are you major plans towards this module's completion? Will we begin seeing extensive list of bug fixes on patch notes from now on until it is in a more stable state?

 

There will always be things breaking but try to work with the community a little more. Calling your customers toxic (Even if that is true) is not professional. Please speak here in a different tone than what you are used to with your mates within Razbam.

[Baco]

Decoy I would suggest you guys stop teasing so much then... Its not funny...

 

So If you rely on SOUTH ATLANTIC (I belive the map is called, right?), the Mig 23 and the AMX to go by, I suggest you start treating your southamerican customers a bit better...

[ruxtmp]

There are some that keep coming into this thread with this same line of thinking and while it isn't outright correct, it is also not the whole picture.

 

I have been playing DCS for going on a decade. I have bought just about every module with only a few specific exceptions. I know that when I buy a module, I am more than likely getting a early access product with the promise that it will eventually be a full, complete release. Obviously sometimes things go very bad (VEAO and the Hawk module is a good example) but for the most part, ED, Heatblur, and Deka have been good about (and this is key here) demonstrating their willingness to complete the modules they make via steady updates, (at least) decent enough communication, and generally positive, non-adversarial, usually professional behavior when faced with the occasional controversy. When I bought the F-16 module, I knew I was getting a extremely unfinished aircraft but I didn't freak out about it because I also know that ED is quite likely to finish it. I know that they went into the project with the information and SME support they need to get it up to standard. The same can be said of the F-14 and Viggen by Heatblur. Heck, even Deka has come in with not only a pretty solid module but also a strong amount of early access support that has meaningfully pushed the aircraft towards a complete state.

 

The point I am making here is that for the most part, while it can be sometimes frustrating to wait, ED, Heatblur, and Deka have managed to release things into early access that one can be reasonably confident will get finished. They all seem to be shooting for a similar level of fidelity and sometimes they even go above and beyond what is in DCS's core (which is another very important detail in all this). It might take a while but buying in to early access with them isn't a obvious risk.

 

RAZBAM is a different case. When they were gearing up to release the Mirage, they marketed it as if it were a full, DCS level simulation of a Mirage 2000C-RDI model but when it came out, it started to become pretty clear that RAZBAM's lack of support from Dassault, the French Air forces, and even SME's just wasn't where it needed to be. They filled in a lot of gaps themselves and we got something pretty similar to the "frankenviper" in the other combat sim. Heck, they even used performance charts from said other sim to build the Mirage module.)

 

We didn't really get a full idea of how far off it was until the AdA actually stepped in and helped them out much, much later. Had RAZBAM not been approached, the Mirage would not have met the standards set by its own store-page.

 

With the Harrier release, we saw a lot of this play out yet again. Its initial release had a lot of bugs but that was forgivable. The big issue was really that it didn't get as much post-release support as other modules from other developers regularly got. It would get a patch here and there but things that other DCS developers would handle without snark and complaint were often somewhat drama filled with RAZBAM. They (like VEAO before them) would often retreat behind "DCS updates will just break everything anyway so why bother fixing this or that". People would point out bugs or even incomplete or absent functionality and RAZBAM would give us a a line like "ED needs to do that" or something to that effect.

 

When they released the MiG-19, even that involved some drama as the RAZBAM developers were pretty quick to complain about the standards that ED had set for something beyond a early access release. They seriously thought that the MiG-19 was a full release when it first came out. Let that roll around in one's mind for a while. It was horribly buggy and had some serious, obvious flight model problems but as far as RAZBAM was concerned, they felt it was feature complete and got offended publicly when told that was not the case.

 

Alongside the MiG-19 itself, its release also heralded some community upset about the state of the Harrier. Keep in mind, this was last year. Pretty much the same upset we are seeing now is only a repeat of what has already happened last year. During the MiG-19 release, I can't be absolutely sure and won't assert that it is true but I strongly suspect that ED talked to them about the Harrier's state because they seemed to come back at the Harrier with some degree of renewed vigor and didn't seem so bitter about having to do so (At least publicly). Again. this is my theory so take it for what it is.

 

Sadly, here we are again. Only now we have some statements on the Discord from RAZBAM that indicates that they genuinely consider the harrier "feature complete" even though it not only technically isn't but is (more importantly) quite incomplete with what is there. I am not so much talking about issues that could fall into secrecy territory. I am talking about just things like how the knobs and switches function and basic stuff like that.

 

Looking at their discord, we are again starting to get a picture of what happened and it is looking like the Mirage all over again. It is my guess that they took on the module without having a plan to get all the information they would need. They did the best they could with what they could get their hands on but it clearly wasn't quite enough. Sadly, I don't see a scenario where the USMC or Boeing will come in and help them out like the AdA eventually did with the Mirage. What we have is probably about as much as they could do with the information they were willing and/or able to go out and get.

 

So here we are. The cycle repeats itself and while folks who have (sometimes very patiently) been waiting for a complete module are still waiting for some pretty significant and long acknowledged issues to get fixed, we are also yet again being told to shut up because early access is what it is. Well, the Harrier isn't in early access anymore and we are still waiting for early access problems to get solved. What else should we do here? What other choice do we have but to speak up a bit (hopefully politely) and hope that ED puts them to task?

 

I have said this before but I think the real thing at stake here is not the Harrier module but every other complex module that RAZBAM makes in the future. Knowing what we know from the release of the Mirage and the Harrier, isn't it about time we get a clear, unmistakable idea of what RAZBAM considers a complete module? Isn't it time they tell us before releasing a module what they were able to get in terms of information and how that will translate into a complete module? Perhaps it is time for ED to set firmer, stricter rules when it comes to third party project approval?

 

This probably comes off in text as more hostile than it is in my head as I type it. Please note that I am not saying that RAZBAM is "scamming" us or that they are intentionally and maliciously misleading us. I think they genuinely have a standard they shoot for internally but perhaps that standard isn't what ED and other third parties have led us to expect. This current debacle is going to keep repeating (and probably for future RAZBAM modules as well) until they either make it clear that they are working towards a lower level of fidelity or they find some way to reach the standard set by their peers. I for one hope that this is the last time we need to (as long-time Harrier owners) ask why we have not seen significant, consistent updates.

 

100% agree with everything here. Their previous experience is with MSFS which for the most part is a pretty simplistic sim. I think they saw another market but unfortunately thought their previous methodology would be good enough for DCS. I think they have found that the DCS community is vastly different then the majority of the MSFS customer that are just fine with a simple model. While I think Nineline and Bignewy have done a tremendous amount to get the general bugs looked at instead of ignored I have little confidence in RAZBAM's ability to deliver the Harrier with all its major systems modeled correctly (e.g. ARBS). I doubt they have access to the needed documents as most are off limits to export. Therefore the way I see it this module should have been either advertised as FlamingCliffs level or never seen the light of day. No matter how much begging in the Heatblur forum for the F-14D the team is not budging from their not going to make it decision. They can't get the needed documents to make a DCS level representation of the aircraft and its systems so its not happening.

Edited September 13, 2020 by ruxtmp

[Fisherman82]

Is or is not Decoy a member of Razbam?

Or are there now over 500 comments and not one single one from Razbam?

 

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