still love this old bird

[thrustvector]

i was just looking through hours spent on diff modules, i know i fly the 8 regular, but surprised how many i have on her.

recently it seems a few under bonnet changes have crept in as she seems far more stable, but then i have a habit of continually trimming as i fly, maybe excessive by some standards and maybe its just that, but just wanted to say thanks for a great long lasting module

[Rudel_chw]

10 minutes ago, thrustvector said:

...  but then i have a habit of continually trimming as i fly, maybe excessive by some standards ...

 

Seems that's the way she is flown in real life, judging by the clicking sound on this video:

 

 

[thrustvector]

wow, crikey yes i see, think i do it about the the same or a bit less, makes it so stable, just need to reset sometimes if you go too far or land etc.

thanks for the vid

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

12 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

Seems that's the way she is flown in real life, judging by the clicking sound on this video:

Couldn't that be something else? A real cyclic is something quite different than simmers flying a helicopter with a fixed-wing setup. 
I fly with a decent cyclic (yes I know it's still different than the real thing) and I never ever trim any helicoper in DCS since there is no need to.

[admiki]

Quote from pilot that made that video:

Ya it is I asked about it and they all kinda laughed. Apparently it’s like us (in the Black Hawk) some people hold the trim switch down the entire time and other press it every time they move the controls and release it

Edited February 1, 2021 by admiki

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Some time ago I read about how the real cyclic works in the Mi-8, and I seem to remember that when you hold the cyclic a button is pressed that lowers the amount of force needed to move it around. When you let go, you can still move the cyclic but quite a lot of force is needed to do so.

 

The idea is similar to how the Mirage 2000 stick works: if you hold the stick a button is pressed that acts like an autopilot standby. When you let go, the autopilot is engaged.

[Rudel_chw]

21 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Some time ago I read about how the real cyclic works in the Mi-8, and I seem to remember that when you hold the cyclic a button is pressed that lowers the amount of force needed to move it around. When you let go, you can still move the cyclic but quite a lot of force is needed to do so.

 

That's on the Collective .. not the Cyclic.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Ah ok... Cheers!

[scoobie]

I guess they do it simply because it must be most comfortable for them in a real helo - just click and the stick (cyclic) stays still. That's all. And they always know how she's trimmed - the stick is in that position.

Not the case with a non-FFB joystick in DCS.
I also saw a video on Youtube from Mi-26 (which I call "flying building") - the commander was clicking trim constantly, every two seconds perhaps... and I don't think Mi-26 is twitchy.

(sigh) We all need good FFB joysticks, I guess. Steering wheels for simracers have had decent/good FFB for 15 years or so, why isn't anybody offering such joysticks (any longer)? Would price be too steep? I don't get it.

 

Still, I concur with OP, the big lady is great, can do all sorts of things, some claim she has a soul, but definitely has a lot of depth and capability, and it just feels so good to sit in the cockpit and move that stick around Oh, and the "chirp" from the scissor link - I could listen to it all day long.

Oh, BTW, don't forget to try Mi-8 like this: DMS left = commander, DMS up = chief, DMS right = navigator. It really becomes a better module when you switch seats. I didn't belive it myself, tried it... and never looked back. Startup - chief. In-flight ground observation (searching) or just looking around, for a specific place etc. - all 3 blokes in the cockpit. Cruise with DISS navigation - navigator. Sling load drop - both commander (for flying) and navigator (he sticks his head outside and looks down), general maneouvering/flying - commander.

Three workplaces for the price of a single module - it's a bargain, men!

 

[unknown]

@scoobie Ha, i have also key bindings on my HOTAS for all 3 crew stations. 

 

47 minutes ago, scoobie said:

Sling load drop - both commander (for flying) and navigator (he sticks his head outside and looks down)

If you carry sling loads and switch to the crew chief position you are not in the cockpit anymore but back in the cargo compartement and looking through the sling load opening down at the sling load/ground -> if you need to be extra precise in dropping it.

[unknown]

14 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Couldn't that be something else?

That sounds like the cyclic trim. I remember a video of PilotMi8 as they implemented the sling load feature(DCS 1.x?), he was dropping a sling load cargo on top of a building roof and he also used(you could hear it) the trim quite often, that was the point were i started to use the trim more often and it was quite a game changer to fly the MI-8 that way for me, it makes the MI-8 absolute stable/comfortable in every manouver(i don't have a ffb joystick).

[Rudel_chw]

17 minutes ago, unknown said:

@scoobie Ha, i have also key bindings on my HOTAS for all 3 crew stations. 

 

+1 Me too, I used the only 3-way switch of my HOTAS for seat selection, works perfectly .. I'm still polishing my HOTAS bindings as I progress on my learning of this helo, currently they are like this:

 

 

[scoobie]

Thanks! I'm always eager to see how other people deal with things... so I can steal cool ideas from others!
Speaking of which...
I can see you have "AP Altitude up/down". Does it work for anybody? I think it's some kind of a "test" switch, you can't really make her climb/descent with it (i.e. change the altitude for ALT HOLD autopilot). I mean, initially she WILL climb or descent, but then go the opposite way and finally stabilize. Am I doing something wrong? I even removed this switch from my H/W controls, I thought it was useless.

 

@unknown Yes, I know about the chief staring through the hole But this is, say, "phase 3". "Phase 2" is when commander can no longer see the drop site (we're too close), but we're still too far to use the chief (he can't see too much ground around), so I'm using poor navigator to stare down through his open blister window, and thus I can QUICKLY assess the vicinity of the place: DMS_right - look! - DMS_left - fly! (rinse, repeat). It's faster than making the commander look down and up again (each animation takes a second and makes me a bit dizzy in the long run). The trick here is that I make the navigator get his head out the window PRIOR to the whole procedure and leave him like this, then it's only quick "switch seat" to have a glimpse down.
Well... Sometimes I even use landing lights as a "precision creepage speed indicator" - the spot of light on the ground below gives you great indication of 1) if 2) how fast 3) in what direction exactly you are "creeping" above the ground. It's more precise at very small speeds than that, otherwise excellent, "hover gauge" on the commander's dashboard. But don't worry - it's just me I can't live without coming up with strange ideas.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by scoobie

[Rudel_chw]

8 minutes ago, scoobie said:

...
I can see you have "AP Altitude up/down". Does it work for anybody? I think it's some kind of a "test" switch, you can't really make her climb/descent with it (i.e. change the altitude for ALT HOLD autopilot). I mean, initially she WILL climb or descent, but then go the opposite way and finally stabilize. Am I doing something wrong? I even removed this switch from my H/W controls, I thought it was useless.

well, actually I binded the AP following the example on Chuck’s Guide, but I have not yet learn how to use the AP (only the yaw stabilization), so I’m not sure if it works or not

[cro_mig_21]

On 1/31/2021 at 1:10 PM, Rudel_chw said:

 

Seems that's the way she is flown in real life, judging by the clicking sound on this video:

 

 

Nice video, but the description is wrong...it's actually a Mi-171sh, Croatian air force

[MAXsenna]

well, actually I binded the AP following the example on Chuck’s Guide, but I have not yet learn how to use the AP (only the yaw stabilization), so I’m not sure if it works or not

Try mapping the collective brake. I believe that's how you set altitude, but it's a hit and miss for me over terrain though. Over water it works fairly well.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Art-J]

5 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Some time ago I read about how the real cyclic works in the Mi-8, and I seem to remember that when you hold the cyclic a button is pressed that lowers the amount of force needed to move it around. When you let go, you can still move the cyclic but quite a lot of force is needed to do so.

 

Yup. I've heard it as well from my boss, who used to fly Hips and other helos before retirement. It's also mentioned in the manual, page 81 and in couple of places later.

 

5 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

That's on the Collective .. not the Cyclic.

 

 Nope ;). See above.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Art-J

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

45 minutes ago, Art-J said:

Yup. I've heard it as well from my boss

Are you in an opportunity to ask your boss what that clicking in the video is? I mean, trimming only makes sense on controls that are self-centering. When I try trimming my Puma, it feels really awkward and un-intuitive.
Perhaps the clicking is the holding/letting go of that "button" that triggers the difference in force required?

 

On page 81 the manual says: "Force centering devices are incorporated in the cyclic control system." That coincides then with the start-up procedure: you can see the cyclic in the cockpit move to centre as soon as the first engine is fired up and running at idle...

Edited February 1, 2021 by Raven (Elysian Angel)

[MAXsenna]

Are you in an opportunity to ask your boss what that clicking in the video is? I mean, trimming only makes sense on controls that are self-centering. When I try trimming my Puma, it feels really awkward and un-intuitive.
Perhaps the clicking is the holding/letting go of that "button" that triggers the difference in force required?
 
On page 81 the manual says: "Force centering devices are incorporated in the cyclic control system." That coincides then with the start-up procedure: you can see the cyclic in the cockpit move to centre as soon as the first engine is fired up and running at idle...

No, because you were correct in your other post.
I've got an FFB stick. You click the "trim" but to remove forces from the stick, and release it to "lock" it in the new trimmed position. Your Puma without FFB is like flying the Huey with the force trim turned off.
That said. Not a real helipilot myself. So I could be wrong.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

I've got an FFB stick. You click the "trim" but to remove forces from the stick, and release it to "lock" it in the new trimmed position.

Is your FFB stick self-centering?

I don't care about being right or wrong, I just want to know how it works IRL and how that relates to the control setup I use: my stuff doesn't self-centre: I put the cyclic in a certain position and it stays there until I move it somehere else, therefore I have no need for trimming.

 

The Puma I use is meant to mimic light helicopters. Perhaps heavier helicopters do use self-centering cyclic and pedals for whatever reason... If so, I'd like to know how and why

Edited February 1, 2021 by Raven (Elysian Angel)

[MAXsenna]

Is your FFB stick self-centering?
I don't care about being right or wrong, I just want to know how it works IRL and how that relates to the control setup I use: my stuff doesn't self-centre: I put the cyclic in a certain position and it stays there until I move it somehere else, therefore I have no need for trimming.
 
The Puma I use is meant to mimic light helicopters. Perhaps heavier helicopters do use self-centering cyclic and pedals for whatever reason... If so, I'd like to know how and why

Not in the way you'd think it'd centre.
In a plane, yes, it self-centres, just like any ordinary joystick with springs.
But when you use it in a helicopter in DCS, "the force" fights you when you move it, and returns to the starting point, unless, you press the trim button. Then it goes limp, until you release it, and then it's trimmed with a new starting position until you trim again, off centre. The position of the stick will be wherever you trimmed it to. That's what you see/hear in the video. And like I wrote, in the Huey, you can turn off force trim, and it's limp all the time.
Check out DIY cyclic with magnetic break on YT. Gives a better impression.
An analogy could be like in some of the FC3 aircrafts, where you can turn on the autopilot, hold a button the stick, and alter attitude, and let go, and thats the new input for the AP.
And btw, when you trim a plane with the trim hat, the physical stick will move just like in a real one, and what you see on your screen.
I'm not sure if you got any wiser with this.
Cheers!


Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[scoobie]

Now I get it! Apparently Puma is simply held where you leave it with friction. I didn't know that. Couldn't they be more explicit on their website?
In that case, you just don't need no trim with Puma - it is like "auto-trimming" cyclic, without the need of pressing any silly buttons
Good stuff, I must admit, though different from what you have in Mi-8.
Mi-8 cyclic is pretty much a "force feedback joystick". "Self-centering" is a misleading term. It's "self-remaining-where-you-leave-it", but only if you use trim button. Otherwise it is just "spring loaded" (FFB mechanism loaded). It's "self returning to the position where you last released trim button" by means of "spring load". When you press the trim button, the spring load disappears... until you release it again, thus setting a new "neutral" position for a spring load mechanism.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by scoobie

[admiki]

@Raven (Elysian Angel)yes, basicaly it is centering stick, only thing is that center moves around

 

this should give you a bit more understanding. Difference is that Mi8 does not have so called beep trim (means you can't move trim position using hat switch on the cyclic)

[Lurker]

Flying helicopters with anything other than a FFB stick would be impossible for me. 

[Marsvinet]

The Mi8 is definitely my favourite module to just fly around in. Cruising through the Caucasus mountains is a lovely feeling, landing at the highest peaks. Sneaking above the sandy plains of the Persian gulf or just enjoying the scenery of Syria. ....Now I need to go fly it some more....

Regarding the discussion on the trimming, there is AlphaOneSix's excellent writeup on how the system works in the real deal and why trimming is done all the time. For me using my spring centered Virpil with a mile long extension, I trim pretty much constantly and center my stick when I do, as to not move too far away from center and feel too much stick force. It looks pretty much like that Croatian Mi17 video when I fly. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Marsvinet