Why are there so many differences between the manual and the sim?

[dporter22]

Sorry if this has been covered, but it's a constant source of frustration that there are several mismatches between what the manual says and the sim.  I understand that everything is a work in progress, however there should be a simple way for the user to figure out what actually works, which controls actually do what, which HOTAS functions only apply to the beta version, etc.

 

Little things, like how some of the TAD DMS functions listed in the manual don't actually work (at least not in the stable version).  Why isn't there a simple, current reference to check which errors have been corrected, differences between stable and beta, recent changes to functions/HOTAS assignments, etc?  

 

And shouldn't the manual and various guides be written for the stable version anyway?  IMO, the stable version should be the standard, with an accurate manual, where new and old users can go as a definitive reference, while the beta version with all it's works in progress should be the one that may or may not be accurate and where users accept that there will be some errors.  As it is now, it seems to be the opposite.

 

In the operational world, whenver there is a change or correction, a message is release fleetwide and it's mandatory for every crewmember to update their pubs immediately. 

[Wing]

I believe ED recently hired a new User Manual writer. Hopefully with that, this issue improves...

[dporter22]

And why is there not a way to edit the title so I can correct it from 'difference' to 'differences'?

[BIGNEWY]

9 minutes ago, Wing said:

I believe ED recently hired a new User Manual writer. Hopefully with that, this issue improves...

Correct we have a new team member working on the manuals, and we have been reporting issues to him for fixing, then it has to be translated so can take a little time.

 

 

9 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

And why is there not a way to edit the title so I can correct it from 'difference' to 'differences'?

 

Done, and thanks for the feedback, we are working on it. 

[Hawkeye_UK]

In the Interim check out https://www.mudspike.com/chucks-guides-dcs-a-10c-warthog/

 

This is updated for the new A10C 2 and has the updated Hotas controls.  

 

Also from the ED website, check out kneeboard pages.

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313817/

 

Also this is excellent as a quick check,

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3312541/

 

Appreciate the OP post of how important manuals are and confident ED will deliver but in the interim id recommend using these.  Lastly have fun with the A10, its an excellent module to invest time in.

PS - i'd also recommend running OB - the reason being is stable is not bug free and you get fixed quicker on OB, also next month will see the 2.7 release with the eagerly awaited weather updates.

[dporter22]

Thanks Hawkeye.  I guess I don't undertand stable vs. OB.  It seems that stable should be exactly that, stable (at least reasonably so), while OB should be the less stable, more buggy, work in progress version.

 

IMO a customer should be able to say, "I'll purchase and stick with the stable version because that's the one where most bugs have been worked out, where the manual is accurate, and where I won't have to worry as much about glitches and things that don't work."  Whereas another customer can decide, "I'll use the OB version with the understanding that I'll get to try some new stuff, but I accept that there will be various problems and I might have to figure some things out on my own."

 

Just my two cents from someone who loves the sim but who sees some things that could easily be improved for the average user.

[dporter22]

Also, even if I reference the other guides there are still confusing mistakes.  For example, in the current Chuck's guide Page 211 says Coolie Up for HMCS as SOI, and then says Coolie Down for HMCS as SOI on the very same page.

[Charly_Owl]

It should be coolie hat DOWN. The logic changed while I was writing the initial draft (before Coolie Hat UP would toggle between HUD SOI and HMCS SOI), and while I thought I had changed it everywhere I missed that one on the top of page 211. I'll have it fixed tonight. Sorry.

[QuiGon]

16 hours ago, dporter22 said:

Why are there so many differences between the manual and the sim?

 

Two reasons:

 

1) The manual was originally written for the old DCS A-10C Warthog module. With the release of the Tank Killer module ED has changed some obvious things in the manual (HOTAS controls) and added some new things (HMCS, APKWS), but some things in the manual still describe how stuff works in the old module, although it works different in the new module. It needs to get properly updated for the new module.

 

2) Open Beta vs. Stable. The Open Beta has recieved some updates that adjusted functions in the Tank Killer module that are not available on the Stable yet. This mainly affects the HOTAS (especially the CMS functions), as the current Open Beta reflects the HOTAS functions as they are described in the Tank Killer manual, whereas the stable still has the old CMS-functions of the old Warthog module.

[dporter22]

11 hours ago, QuiGon said:

 

Two reasons:

 

1) The manual was originally written for the old DCS A-10C Warthog module. With the release of the Tank Killer module ED has changed some obvious things in the manual (HOTAS controls) and added some new things (HMCS, APKWS), but some things in the manual still describe how stuff works in the old module, although it works different in the new module. It needs to get properly updated for the new module.

 

2) Open Beta vs. Stable. The Open Beta has recieved some updates that adjusted functions in the Tank Killer module that are not available on the Stable yet. This mainly affects the HOTAS (especially the CMS functions), as the current Open Beta reflects the HOTAS functions as they are described in the Tank Killer manual, whereas the stable still has the old CMS-functions of the old Warthog module.

 

That's my point, the manual is inaccurate/outdated/confusing which makes it frustrating for an average user when it doesn't have to be.  

 

Yes, it's a complex sim.  Yes, ED is busy (and we thank them for everything they do).  Yes, a few errors are to be expetcted.  Etc, etc.  But the point is that a user should be able to pull up a current, accurate, and fairly mistake-free manual rather than endlessly searching through third-party guides, trying to find releveant videos on youtube, scouring this and other forums for explanations and solutions, etc.  Those other sources should be supplemental, the official manual should be the standard.

 

It's not difficult to do.  When you find and correct errors or make changes you simply update the manual and post a more current version.  If you release a new Tank Killer version you post a supplement to the manual or make the changes in the manual itself.  When you are working with stable and OB versions, you keep the manual accurate for the stable version and post separate info for OB users.

 

For example, why does the current manual show HOTAS TAD functions that don't actually work (Select TAD center option, CEN/DEP Mode CNTR Own, etc.)?  Or why does the Boat Switch for the Mav say Dark/Cold Light/Hot for both the FWD and AFT positions when what it really does is just change the color of the crosshairs?  Is it because these are mistakes, or something that's planned to be implemented later, or only works in OB, or worked before but doesn't work now, or only applies to the Tank Killer, or because my controller isn't working correctly, or because I don't understand something, etc.?  I have no way to know without spending a lot of time searching for the answer, when the manual itself should contain the answer.

 

Again, I love the sim.  This is just an area that could easily be improved which would really help a lot of users.  

 

And yes, I'd be happy to help write/proofread/review.

[Caldera]

Please have them take a look at the multiplayer section.

 

Caldera

[Trukki_dk]

Wow, the new man has to be really good at making manuals. The way the simulator (A10cII part) works now, it becomes an impossible task unless he can also change the game. It is frustrating to read a manual and then discover that the game does not behave as described in the manual and that you can not try to find a useful result. I truly believe that this has cost ED many customers and that in the future it will cost even more if they do not soon get all the bugs under control. Just such a small thing as e.g. The reticle can move in behind other text in the HUD and thus become invisible.

Unfortunately, I think the ED has put its efforts elsewhere.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Trukki_dk

[dorianR666]

i dont even read the new manual. its so wrong its just useless. if it cant get even hotas right...

[Rudel_chw]

24 minutes ago, dorianR666 said:

i dont even read the new manual. its so wrong its just useless. if it cant get even hotas right...

wonder how you know the manual is useless, if you haven’t even read it? 

[dorianR666]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

wonder how you know the manual is useless, if you haven’t even read it? 

i didnt say i havent read it. i said i dont read it. present tense.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

3 years later...

These TAD DMS functions are still not working? as per latest ED/Chuck's manuals. I take it these will never work in the sim and the manuals have not been updated accordingly.  

- DMS Fwd Long - Map Toggle
- DMS Aft Long - Center Option (Why? DMS R Short already cycles CEN/DEP modes.)
- DMS Left Short - CEN/DEP Mode CENTR Own (Whatever that means.)

Edited January 20, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[ASAP]

1 hour ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

3 years later...

These TAD DMS functions are still not working? as per latest ED/Chuck's manuals. I take it these will never work in the sim and the manuals have not been updated accordingly.  

- DMS Fwd Long - Map Toggle
- DMS Aft Long - Center Option (Why? DMS R Short already cycles CEN/DEP modes.)
- DMS Left Short - CEN/DEP Mode CENTR Own (Whatever that means.)

 

If i had to guess they copied the table from the something they got from the actual aircraft, and then failed to simulate the TAD correctly. 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

33 minutes ago, ASAP said:

If i had to guess they copied the table from the something they got from the actual aircraft, and then failed to simulate the TAD correctly. 

Thanks. Probably so. They could at least update the manual to reflect how it works in the sim. I think this issue is 4 years old. That said, it would seem the bottom 2 (DMSAL and DMSLS) are not necessary since DMSRS already cycles CEN and DEP options.  

Edited January 20, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[ASAP]

3 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Thanks. Probably so. They could at least update the manual to reflect how it works in the sim. I think this issue is 4 years old. That said, it would seem the bottom 2 (DMSAL and DMSLS) are not necessary since DMSRS already cycles CEN and DEP options.  

 

The way I understand it DMS Right short SHOULD cycle between different centering options for that map (center SPI, center strpt, center TN, etc...) and then you'd hold DMS Aft Long to activate that center option. DMS left short should be a way to quickly get back to center own. I think in the real jet from what I've seen it's actually DMS Right Long that switches between center and depressed mode... I've always heard that the TAD is one of the worst simulated parts of the A-10C in its current state, and there's a lot of missing functionality and the HOTAS is not right.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

5 hours ago, ASAP said:

The way I understand it DMS Right short SHOULD cycle between different centering options for that map (center SPI, center strpt, center TN, etc...) and then you'd hold DMS Aft Long to activate that center option. DMS left short should be a way to quickly get back to center own. I think in the real jet from what I've seen it's actually DMS Right Long that switches between center and depressed mode... I've always heard that the TAD is one of the worst simulated parts of the A-10C in its current state, and there's a lot of missing functionality and the HOTAS is not right.

I see, makes sense. DMS options are relatively under utilised when it comes to the TAD. And to think the module is already out of EA.

It would appear, as I understand it, that the table in ED's latest manual describes what you explained, except the "CEN/DEP Mode" in DMSLS is in addition to "CNTR Own" (not sure why), and the former is also currently implemented in DMSRS (correctly or incorrectly) as a simple Cycle CEN/DEP. 

    (Red boxes shows not implemented.)

Edited January 21, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN