reported earlier AIM-120 Chaff spoof related issue

[GGTharos]

It's possible but what I heard was that they didn't include a radar-ECM interconnect, and therefore the ECM didn't know when to 'blank' in order to allow the radar to operate.

Edited April 29, 2021 by GGTharos

[dundun92]

On 4/29/2021 at 4:12 AM, Cmptohocah said:

To all the people that think AIM-120 sucks: please try scoring a kill with an R-27 and you will soon realize that AMRAAM does not suck.

It's a very deadly missile and avoiding it is no easy business.

It's kinda irrelevant how good/bad it is compared to the R-27. Deadly? Sure. So is the R-27 when employed properly. But calling the 120 "no easy task" to evade is just wrong. I hate to say it, but if evading 120s isnt easy you really need to practice notching/good missile defense, and as of 2.7 exploiting the new low altitude clutter effects (AMRAAM RN has, on average I'd say a 50% chance of a kill vs a low altitude, head on target due to the random miss distance. R-27, just to add, doesn't have this mechanic likely because it still on the old API)

 

That being said I wouldn't say the AMRAAMs suck. But they ain't hard to evade. At all. There's no need to try and downplay legitimate bugs with useless comparisons to other missiles.

[Cmptohocah]

5 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

It's kinda irrelevant how good/bad it is compared to the R-27. Deadly? Sure. So is the R-27 when employed properly. But calling the 120 "no easy task" to evade is just wrong. I hate to say it, but if evading 120s isnt easy you really need to practice notching/good missile defense, and as of 2.7 exploiting the new low altitude clutter effects (AMRAAM RN has, on average I'd say a 50% chance of a kill vs a low altitude, head on target due to the random miss distance. R-27, just to add, doesn't have this mechanic likely because it still on the old API)

 

That being said I wouldn't say the AMRAAMs suck. But they ain't hard to evade. At all. There's no need to try and downplay legitimate bugs with useless comparisons to other missiles.

Didn't try out 2.7 yet. I fly red side almost exclusively and I can tell you that I have had my fare share of Slammers :D
Anything within 25km is damn hard to evade without going completely defensive. Compared to R-27 which has no loft (still talking about 2.5), much higher drag and which can easily be defeated by mere diving and/or chaff, AMRAAM is a laser. Dunno how the Alamo performs after the latest update.

[GGTharos]

2 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Anything within 25km is damn hard to evade without going completely defensive.

 

I don't see why there would be a different expectation there.

 

2 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Compared to R-27 which has no loft (still talking about 2.5), much higher drag and which can easily be defeated by mere diving and/or chaff, AMRAAM is a laser. Dunno how the Alamo performs after the latest update.

 

About the same but with a bit more range.  The fact that he 120 doesn't such as much as the 27 doesn't mean it doesn't suck

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

22 hours ago, Oceandar said:

so I don't think its 120 issue specifically. AI tactics has a pattern and you just need to observe it to defeat it IMO

Yes you are correct I apologise: an AMRAAM missing a target completely that is flying dead ahead at my 12 o'clock, straight and level, fired from a range of 3 nm, has nothing to do with the missile itself but is due to my inability to adjust to AI tactics. My mistake, thanks for making me see that...

[dundun92]

59 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

which has no loft

doesnt IRL either

59 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

much higher drag

It has more drag than the AMRAAM IRL too, and ED literally reduced it last patch per CFD data.

59 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

which can easily be defeated by mere diving and/or chaff,

Ive yet to see a ER defeated by just diving unless you fired it too far away, which is your fault for firing that far, not the missiles. And chaff affects the AMRAAM as well.

And as mentioned earlier, I dont think your ER exactly has a 50% Pk against a low flying, non maneuvering head on target with no chaff/ECM

Edited April 30, 2021 by dundun92

[Oceandar]

Yes you are correct I apologise: an AMRAAM missing a target completely that is flying dead ahead at my 12 o'clock, straight and level, fired from a range of 3 nm, has nothing to do with the missile itself but is due to my inability to adjust to AI tactics. My mistake, thanks for making me see that...

Sarcasm is appreciated.
I was talking about the post above me 8 vs 8 instant action mission. Without a track or tacview we can only make a guess.
I understand amraam has some issues but its performance is acceptable IMO.

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Oceandar said:

I understand amraam has some issues but its performance is acceptable IMO.

 

It isn't.

[Oceandar]

Apart from against blinking ECM and wingtip bug in F-16 I'm ok with it

[GGTharos]

Good for you.  It's performance is not acceptable, your opinion notwithstanding.  The 'issues' are exactly where it's at 

[fearlessfrog]

Here you go. The instant action 8v8 track, so hopefully I did that right. I just left it alone and let it play out, all default.

 

Initial distance about 20nm.

 

12 AIM-120B's fired, no hits.

 

6 R-73 hits, 2 R-77's hits.

 

All 8 Blue killed, no Reds losses of their 8.

 

Tried changing the default mission to not fire weapons until within 10nm, same result.

Changed the mission, so that blue and red locations/speeds are swapped, so it's not starting positions.

Tried changing to F-16's and then F-15's and more or less same result. The F-15C's did get a single kill.

Changed the 120B's to C's and gave them 8 each, no kills.

 

So this is more about single player and the AI and the use of the AIM-120's, it feels a bit off - or is this just how it is?

8v8redwedding.trk

[deathbysybian]

This is the easiest thing in the world to reproduce, how can you need a trk replay?  At any rate, someone posted one already.

[Svend_Dellepude]

9 hours ago, deathbysybian said:

This is the easiest thing in the world to reproduce, how can you need a trk replay?  At any rate, someone posted one already.

 

Because they might not see the problem on their end so that's why you should provide a track to show what the problem is.

Besides, it's easier and faster for 8 ppl to upload a track each than it is for one person to make 8 tracks.

[deathbysybian]

7 hours ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

 

Because they might not see the problem on their end so that's why you should provide a track to show what the problem is.

Besides, it's easier and faster for 8 ppl to upload a track each than it is for one person to make 8 tracks.

I've never been able to not recreate the problem.

[Svend_Dellepude]

4 hours ago, deathbysybian said:

I've never been able to not recreate the problem.

 

Which is why it should be easy for you to make a track and upload it here to help show the problem.

If you care to help that is.

[fearlessfrog]

@BIGNEWY Do you need another track for this one? I put mine here 

 but happy to upload another one or more if it'll help.

 

[BIGNEWY]

thanks for the tag, I will add it to my list to check today. 

 

 

[BIGNEWY]

It looks like it is related to the chaff spoof issue, I am testing a fix internally at the moment. 

 

we are also waiting for ins / data link for AIM-120 until then its important to support your missiles. 

 

thanks

[nickos86]

This internal fix planned to be introduced in the beta patch today? 

[fearlessfrog]

17 hours ago, nickos86 said:

This internal fix planned to be introduced in the beta patch today? 

 

I don't think so. Updated to patch today and blue AI in the Hornets still struggle. No red losses in that Instant Action 8v8 BVR. No 120, 7 or 9 hits recorded. In multiplayer it's fine, as like @BIGNEWY said we can nurse the 120 along and guide it. This is more an AI vs AI sort of thing for now. Track attached.

 

 

8v8redwedding2.trk

Edited May 6, 2021 by fearlessfrog
Spelling and explanation of the attachments.

[papa_cuhsee]

On 4/30/2021 at 2:01 PM, GGTharos said:

 

It isn't.

yep they suck rn

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Doesn't help that the AI still instantly responds by manoeuvring + chaffing the moment the missile leaves the rail in TWS. Not a second before, not a second after, so that renders the argument of "the AI simulates defensive behaviour against FOX3 carriers" void.

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

I think another major problem here, as Nighthawk once mentioned, is that should an ARH missile loose lock for any reason, ie. due to chaff, notching etc., in DCS, it never reacquires the target when it should in many cases. This is something that needs to be looked at. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT