RPG vs. Helos

[Flagrum]

I just found out, that RPG dudes shoot at helos now!

 

This must be relatively new? I always wanted them to be a threat - thanks ED!

[WinterH]

They more or less always did as far as I recall, at least for a few years I feel like. Not that they can hit much, thankfuly :P. Though caught a direct hit from a BMP-1's main gun a few days ago, so unexpected can happen :))

[Auditor]

They do, but they are way. way. way. too accurate. They invalidate the Hind at one of its best roles: Infantry support. RPG soldiers have sniped me out of the air at 1000 meters or greater in the Hind. My last few sorties attacking infantry positions in the Hind almost always end with an RPG shearing off part of my helicopter.

Strangely enough, you're usually protected in the Huey thanks to it being a smaller target. The Huey is better at it than the Hind thanks to that. 

I'm glad they shoot at targets they think they can hit, but the chance of them using an RPG-7 to hit a moving helicopter at any range greater than maybe a hundred meters should be drastically reduced. 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Auditor

[rayrayblues]

On 6/20/2021 at 11:37 AM, WinterH said:

Not that they can hit much, thankfully :P.

 

11 hours ago, Auditor said:

They do, but they are way. way. way. too accurate.

 

[MIghtymoo]

Can verify that this is st

On 7/28/2021 at 6:24 AM, Auditor said:

They do, but they are way. way. way. too accurate. They invalidate the Hind at one of its best roles: Infantry support. RPG soldiers have sniped me out of the air at 1000 meters or greater in the Hind. My last few sorties attacking infantry positions in the Hind almost always end with an RPG shearing off part of my helicopter.

Strangely enough, you're usually protected in the Huey thanks to it being a smaller target. The Huey is better at it than the Hind thanks to that. 

I'm glad they shoot at targets they think they can hit, but the chance of them using an RPG-7 to hit a moving helicopter at any range greater than maybe a hundred meters should be drastically reduced. 

 

 

 

Can verify that this is still an issue

We lost 4 Hinds due to RPGs, and we thought it would be a walk in the park...

Ended up using Petrovich missiles to get the RPGs, before moving in with the rockets and guns to mop up infantry and trucks.

Edited June 19, 2023 by MIghtymoo

[Hiob]

Tbh. the current events in eastern europe shows that that is pretty accurate. RPGs and Manpads are a very deadly threat to Hinds and helicopters in general.

[cfrag]

Just now, Hiob said:

RPGs and Manpads are a very deadly threat to Hinds and helicopters in general.

Manpads I can understand - the missiles can change direction and correct their course to hit the target. RPG's function more like bullets and do not correct their course, they AFAIK lack a 'seeker', a controlling mechanism to alter their course post-firing to ensure a hit. Although I'm sure that there will be occasional lucky hit, using RPGs against weaving, moving airborne targets like Helicopters seems a low-probability event. That being said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong  

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, cfrag said:

Manpads I can understand - the missiles can change direction and correct their course to hit the target. RPG's function more like bullets and do not correct their course, they AFAIK lack a 'seeker', a controlling mechanism to alter their course post-firing to ensure a hit. Although I'm sure that there will be occasional lucky hit, using RPGs against weaving, moving airborne targets like Helicopters seems a low-probability event. That being said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong  

You are certainly right, I didn't really differentiate between those two. And most of the hits were probably from Manpads. I have to say though - seeing the footage, the Hinds pre-flare and fly low but I've never seen them weaving before they were actually attacked. Then they usually do a single evasive turn before they are downed.

[okopanja]

11 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Tbh. the current events in eastern europe shows that that is pretty accurate. RPGs and Manpads are a very deadly threat to Hinds and helicopters in general.

Actually, if you recall the events in USA's experience in Somalia, not one but two Black Hawks got downed by RPG-7. These weapons can be reloaded fast, have been made to target tanks and non-moving or slow moving targets should not be an issue for shooter who shoot 3-5 rounds before.

Regarding the future of gunships (don't get this wrong, k-52s are doing really great atm): they are singing their swan's song for several reasons:

1. modern battlefield is over-saturated with threats that can take them even on longer distances
2. there are cheaper and more effective alternatives:
   1. larger drones able to launch guided missiles
   2. drones capable of carrier 1 or more cumulative mines
   3. loitering ammunition capable of striking as far as 40-70km away

That said the helicopters will remain:

1. to transport and do med missions
2. for cases where opponent is simply too weak
3. for cases where they themselves are equipped with weapons that does not require line-of-sight.

[Hiob]

3 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Actually, if you recall the events in USA's experience in Somalia, not one but two Black Hawks got downed by RPG-7. These weapons can be reloaded fast, have been made to target tanks and non-moving or slow moving targets should not be an issue for shooter who shoot 3-5 rounds before.

 

The situation was a bit different though. The blackhawks were hovering between buildings when they got hit and not moving fast through open terrain. (If Blackhawk Down is remotely accurate).

Edited June 19, 2023 by Hiob

[MIghtymoo]

11 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Actually, if you recall the events in USA's experience in Somalia, not one but two Black Hawks got downed by RPG-7. These weapons can be reloaded fast, have been made to target tanks and non-moving or slow moving targets should not be an issue for shooter who shoot 3-5 rounds before.

 

I agree if you are in the below 100 meter range for slow moving targets and even shorter for faster ones.

[okopanja]

29 minutes ago, Hiob said:

The situation was a bit different though. The blackhawks were hovering between buildings when they got hit and not moving fast through open terrain. (If Blackhawk Down is remotely accurate).

 

The easiest to hit is a moving still target. The moving target probability declines, but I assume that at 70 km/h it is still doable. For faster not willing to bet on that.

Edited June 19, 2023 by okopanja
corrected horrible statement

[cfrag]

1 minute ago, okopanja said:

The easiest to hit is a moving target.

That doesn't sound right. Why is a moving target easier to hit than a stationary one? All my experience (which, admittedly excludes RPG) seems to indicate that a target is easier to hit the more stationary it is, especially at distance. To me the easiest to hit is a non-moving target. Did I misread something?

[okopanja]

7 minutes ago, cfrag said:

That doesn't sound right. Why is a moving target easier to hit than a stationary one? All my experience (which, admittedly excludes RPG) seems to indicate that a target is easier to hit the more stationary it is, especially at distance. To me the easiest to hit is a non-moving target. Did I misread something?

you are correct, this was the most horrible type I made...

[Dragon1-1]

An RPG-7 can hit a static target at 1000m, but only with a telescopic sight, which isn't exactly common for insurgents (but it is for regular forces). For anything moving, you want to be very close. Current RPGs are too accurate against moving targets, IRL they have trouble even against tanks on the move, unless very close.

[okopanja]

18 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

An RPG-7 can hit a static target at 1000m but only with a telescopic sight, which isn't exactly common for insurgents (but it is for regular forces). For anything moving, you want to be very close. Current RPGs are too accurate against moving targets, IRL they have trouble even against tanks on the move, unless very close.

RPG-7 at 1000m? Likely it can not even reach it. This weapon is for close distance, expect not more than 400m with best results 150m

Edited June 19, 2023 by okopanja

[Hiob]

Again referring to the movie (if it was half way accurate) - in Somalia it was shown like 50-100 m on a stationary target. Which makes sense then.

[okopanja]

7 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Again referring to the movie (if it was half way accurate) - in Somalia it was shown like 50-100 m on a stationary target. Which makes sense then.

E.g. AK-47 has distance correction up to 1000m if I remember correctly, however, already at 400m you do not see much. Optics are needed. This is why for longer ranges you need optics. You would see helicopter off course.

Example of much more capable rocked launcher than RPG-7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M79_Osa

Edited June 19, 2023 by okopanja

[Dragon1-1]

10 minutes ago, okopanja said:

RPG-7 at 1000m? Likely it can not even reach it. 

It can, as long as you're not shooting one of the heavy rockets like PG-7VR. You need a scope, a static and a lot of experience because the grid doesn't go out so far. You also need to be shooting at something bigger than a tank, an area target or a building. But it can be done.

Now, for realistic ranges for "everyday use"? The scope grid ends at 500m for light PG-7s, and at 200m for heavy ones. Iron sights, I imagine 150m tops, and with an accuracy penalty. That's all for static targets, for moving ones, this would depend on speed and the firer's experience, but 300m with scope and 100m without sound like plausible values. 

[Extranajero]

There's an elevation limit to the use of an RPG. If it's raised beyond a certain point the back blast will hit the ground close enough behind the shooter to kill him.
The Somali militia that downed the Blackhawks were shooting from prepared ambush positions at the edge of pits they'd dug for the back blast to dissipate in.
Mujahadeen ( spelling ? ) in the Soviet Afghan war are alleged to have built modified RPG tubes which directed the back blast upwards. Inshallah anyway. They did knock some helicopters down with RPG's though.

My personal view is that until ED have done something about the omniscience and aimbot nature of their ground AI then they might want to hold off on giving them extra ways to engage airframes that are low and slow, but that's probably a crazy radical opinion.

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It can, as long as you're not shooting one of the heavy rockets like PG-7VR. You need a scope, a static and a lot of experience because the grid doesn't go out so far. You also need to be shooting at something bigger than a tank, an area target or a building. But it can be done.

Now, for realistic ranges for "everyday use"? The scope grid ends at 500m for light PG-7s, and at 200m for heavy ones. Iron sights, I imagine 150m tops, and with an accuracy penalty. That's all for static targets, for moving ones, this would depend on speed and the firer's experience, but 300m with scope and 100m without sound like plausible values. 

Does it have self-liquidator?

 

[Dragon1-1]

AFAIK it has a 4.5 second time fuze. Whether this is enough to get to 1000m or not would depend on the exact round being fired. It flies at around 300m/s using a sustainer rocket (except the OG-7, which leaves it off for some reason), so it should not be a problem for lighter warheads.

[probad]

wasnt the gwot experience against rpgs that they didnt fly all that straight past 100m or so?

[Dragon1-1]

Not if there's any wind, but that's just because they're finned, so they tend to weathervane into the wind. This doesn't help accuracy, particularly if you're accustomed to how windage works for bullets. As I said, it takes a lot of experience eyeballing things to hit anything useful at long range. The scope is useful, but this is not a precision weapon. It can go surprisingly far out and still do damage, though.

Either way, against helos, it should only be viable at iron sight ranges unless it's a hovering target with well known range, because then you can use the scope to place the shot.

[draconus]

US supposedly made some Pk tests with RPG-7:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7#Hit_probabilities

also some snippets:

Quote

Maximum firing range	700 m (OG-7V) (self detonates at ≈920 m (1,000 yd))

The grenade can fly up to 1,100 m (3,600 ft) the fuze sets the maximum range, usually 920 m (3,020 ft).

It is stated that only a 2 metres (6.6 feet) standoff to a rear obstruction is needed for use inside rooms or fortifications.

Edited June 20, 2023 by draconus