PSA: F-14 Performance/FM Development Status + Guided Discussion

[Frosty2124]

37 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

If you are not able to prove what you affirm, it's better you keep silence.  And yes, you spend your time making bla bla bla every day on this forum but when it"s time to do facts you are not available because you fly once a month . I don't want to show you i'm the best, i don't think i am the best. I would like to show you how the F18 at the moment is the most dominant plane

 

Did you just '1v1 me on rust noob' someone on DCS? what's with the petulance, this is an environment for learning.....

[Phoenix 1-1]

1 hour ago, maxsin72 said:

If you are not able to prove what you affirm, it's better you keep silence.  And yes, you spend your time making bla bla bla every day on this forum but when it"s time to do facts you are not available because you fly once a month . I don't want to show you i'm the best, i don't think i am the best. I would like to show you how the F18 at the moment is the most dominant plane

 

I mean it wouldn’t matter as a comparison as you two have differing skill levels anyway, what would actually help your claim is getting evidence for why the f-18 is more dominant than the f-14 using actual metrics from the game (“I beat you in a 1v1” isn’t a valid argument) like FM performance ex. data from the devs instead of asking to “1v1 me bro” as your argument.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Phoenix 1-1

[lunaticfringe]

All it takes is a couple of Tacviews...

[maxsin72]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:52 AM, Spurts said:

With enough practice the F-14 can win BFM against any DCS Module.  Period.  If no one is using it that is because they don't want to put in the time to become untouchable.

 

On 11/2/2022 at 1:01 PM, Spurts said:

And your statement proves my point.  I have dominated F/A-18s in the F-14 because it can generate much more lift for tighter turn radii, you just have to practice to be able to still control it.  You have to practice AoA control, using rudders, knowing when to use cross control lateral stick inputs, knowing when you can and cannot put the big flaps down.  In the Hornet the FBW nannies do all the work for you but also limit your capability.  The F-14 is more capable, but it is not easy to get and use that capability.  The Hornet is a very dangerous opponent and is very easy to use which means even those with lower skills/experience can do great, but the F-14 can do more in the hands of someone who knows how to wring everything out of it.  In the hands of a novice, or someone who tries to fly it like it's an F/A-18, the F-14 is more dangerous to the pilot than the opponent.

 

2 hours ago, Spurts said:

LOL, okay.

 

1 hour ago, Frosty2124 said:

Did you just '1v1 me on rust noob' someone on DCS? what's with the petulance, this is an environment for learning.....

 

1 hour ago, Phoenix 1-1 said:

I mean it wouldn’t matter as a comparison as you two have differing skill levels anyway, what would actually help your claim is getting evidence for why the f-18 is more dominant than the f-14 using actual metrics from the game (“I beat you in a 1v1” isn’t a valid argument) like FM performance ex. data from the devs instead of asking to “1v1 me bro” as your argument.

 

 

39 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

All it takes is a couple of Tacviews...

When somebody claims "With enough practice the F-14 can win BFM against any DCS Module.  Period." or "I have dominated F/A-18s in the F-14 because it can generate much more lift for tighter turn radii, you just have to practice to be able to still control it." and it's not available to fly because he is busy all the time to write on the forum, i can't believe him.

I want to learn so teach me how to become "untouchable"  or is he perhaps only bragging?

Edited November 3, 2022 by maxsin72

[lunaticfringe]

Just now, maxsin72 said:

When somebody claims "With enough practice the F-14 can win BFM against any DCS Module.  Period." or "I have dominated F/A-18s in the F-14 because it can generate much more lift for tighter turn radii, you just have to practice to be able to still control it." and it's not available to fly because he is busy all the time to write on the forum, i can't believe him.

I want to learn so teach me how to became "untouchable"  or is he perhaps only bragging?

Spurts shows his work on YouTube.

[maxsin72]

7 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

Spurts shows his work on YouTube.

And i would like to show you the results of the tests with Spurts, so what is your point? You are only making bla bla bla just like your friend Spurts...

Edited November 3, 2022 by maxsin72

[RustBelt]

Why do you insist on being so insufferable? Nobody wants to play with you, you need to understand that. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by RustBelt

[captain_dalan]

21 hours ago, IronMike said:

<snip>

2x2x2_38kft.zip.acmi 157.82 kB · 4 downloads 4x2x2x2tanks_40kft.zip.acmi 269.95 kB · 3 downloads

 

I'll try to reproduce to time-to-mach at altitude tests this weekend, but no promises. 

15 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

Maybe i'm wrong maybe not, i'm talking only about F14B, i don't know almost at all A version, in the graph below i see Ps going very low under mach 0,4 and, imho, this is a terrain, the low speed fighting, in which F14B can do very well but perhaps it can do even better with the right Ps. The same for speeds over mach 0,6, even if at this speeds the impact is less than at speeds under mach 0,4.

 

Already addressed by the author of the video, but if you need further proof, take a look at the scripted test results published online. Turn rates are essentially right as they are. 

4 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

If you are not able to prove what you affirm, it's better you keep silence.  And yes, you spend your time making bla bla bla every day on this forum but when it"s time to do facts you are not available because you fly once a month . I don't want to show you i'm the best, i don't think i am the best. I would like to show you how the F18 at the moment is the most dominant plane

 

If your only argument against someone's claims is based in their willingness to fight you, regardless of what they are saying, then perhaps this thread is in need of some moderation. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by captain_dalan

[Frosty2124]

2 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

 

I want to learn so teach me how to become "untouchable"  or is he perhaps only bragging?

 

Mate, the way you're behaving now no one wants to associate with you. You're already 'untouchable' aswell as maybe 'unlikeable' and 'insufferable'

[lunaticfringe]

3 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

And i would like to show you the results of the tests with Spurts, so what is your point? You are only making bla bla bla just like your friend spurt...

The point is that you're continuing with the Super Sekrit Squirrel handshake routine against people who take the time to document their findings and presents them to all like its a feather in your cap.  Why are you worried about Spurts when you have the data from your practices with you wingmates? 

The whole "cash me outside on the playground, brah" shtick comes across as the DCS equivalent of a white panel van with "FREE CANDY" on the side, when all you've offered is a 3000 hour logbook and an attitude. 

Get some ACMIs with timestamps up- if you can make the case, it doesn't need further experimentation, no need for canned conditions if you've already experienced them.  So present your findings and let's look at outcomes- positional, available G and speed, and the decision making that goes into them, to keep from getting into those outcomes.  That is to say- the entire point of the exercise; reviewing the situation, observing the disparities, and planning how not to make those mistakes.  

This is more and more reading like someone who is afraid of having their work checked publicly rather than an issue of people who already provide data and instruction in the open getting punked. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[maxsin72]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

If your only argument against someone's claims is based in their willingness to fight you, regardless of what they are saying, then perhaps this thread is in need of some moderation. 

 

Is it so difficult to understand? I wish to test, not to fight, test test test and test again i wish to understand if my point is right, ok? And i think there is ridiculous people who bla bla bla but don't wont to test on play ground to prove their point!

34 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

The point is that you're continuing with the Super Sekrit Squirrel handshake routine against people who take the time to document their findings and presents them to all like its a feather in your cap.  Why are you worried about Spurts when you have the data from your practices with you wingmates? 

The whole "cash me outside on the playground, brah" shtick comes across as the DCS equivalent of a white panel van with "FREE CANDY" on the side, when all you've offered is a 3000 hour logbook and an attitude. 

Get some ACMIs with timestamps up- if you can make the case, it doesn't need further experimentation, no need for canned conditions if you've already experienced them.  So present your findings and let's look at outcomes- positional, available G and speed, and the decision making that goes into them, to keep from getting into those outcomes.  That is to say- the entire point of the exercise; reviewing the situation, observing the disparities, and planning how not to make those mistakes.  

This is more and more reading like someone who is afraid of having their work checked publicly rather than an issue of people who already provide data and instruction in the open getting punked. 

 

Bla bla bla bla bla, stop bla bla bla, come on with me and do some tests and then we will have some good material to analyze, oh sorry i forgot you are always on the forum to say bla bla bla but you don't have time to test, what a pity...

54 minutes ago, Frosty2124 said:

Mate, the way you're behaving now no one wants to associate with you. You're already 'untouchable' aswell as maybe 'unlikeable' and 'insufferable'

Another one who is only able to say bla bla bla, nice

2 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Why do you insist on being so insufferable? Nobody wants to play with you, you need to understand that. 

 

and another one, bla bla bla, so sad

[RustBelt]

1 hour ago, maxsin72 said:

Is it so difficult to understand? I wish to test, not to fight, test test test and test again i wish to understand if my point is right, ok? And i think there is ridiculous people who bla bla bla but don't wont to test on play ground to prove their point!

Bla bla bla bla bla, stop bla bla bla, come on with me and do some tests and then we will have some good material to analyze, oh sorry i forgot you are always on the forum to say bla bla bla but you don't have time to test, what a pity...

Another one who is only able to say bla bla bla, nice

and another one, bla bla bla, so sad

Yea, must be everyone else who's wrong. That's typically how it works.

[LanceCriminal86]

So, as a friend who is a Hornet enjoyer likes to remind me, there apparently was a letter from the CO of VFA-125 to the Deputy CNO in 1982, where they noted that during a deployment to Yuma earlier in the year they were able to maneuver their F/A-18s into a rear aspect gun or AIM-9 shot on an opposing F-14 in 20 out of 34 engagements, with the F-14s unable to gain a simulated firing solution against an F/A-18 in any of those engagements. Book is "Legacy Hornets: Boeing's F/A-18 A-D Hornets of the USN and USMC by Brad Elward":

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by LanceCriminal86
Added book title for reference

[IronMike]

Who said the F14 should win over an F18 all the time? That is question I will leave to ponder here.

Apart from that, please stay civil everyone. @maxsin72 - you are not really helping your case by saying "bla bla" to folks who actually want to make a point to you (aka help you understand), and calling them out. I really like you, I know that you are simply very passionate about this. But please take a step back and stop challenging ppl in the most literal sense of the word. There is a difference if you say "hey, I would really like to test this with someone together, who knows what he is doing" vs "I don't believe your blabla, come at me bro, show me." The fact simply remains that no one needs (or wants) to prove anything to you, so if you want someone to test with you, you need to be a) nicer and b) ask much more politely and c) accept if they say no as well.

Let us all make a bit tabula rasa here please and start fresh, as I know that none of the parties involved mean ill. To the contrary, we all kind of want the same here. Let's not lose focus of that. I would hate to have to lock this thread because we couldn't resist to not being nice to each other.

Thank you.

[draconus]

7 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

I wish to test, not to fight...

Please understand, it's not a good test. You know, as you wanted it - two people dogfighting 14 vs 18 - will not show you anything about the airframes more than the players' skill.

I remember you from some MP roster so it kind of proves your experience and for that alone I'd be glad to "test" with you but, mind you, I live in CET+1/2, I have almost zero MP experience myself and due tech reasons it'd have to be zip-lip, even small keyboard talk in VR, would be troublesome. I used to like to fight against AI but recent changes in BFM leave me in the dust. They now do plain circles instead of vertical loops and I found I have no chances to keep up with them anymore. Su-27 - ok, but JF-17, MiG-29 or F-16 - no go. So here's my blabla with a bit of a will to fight on a playground.

Edited November 4, 2022 by draconus

[BIGNEWY]

A gentle reminder for everyone here, 

please treat each other with respect and stick to our rules which can be found at the top. 

If you can not please do not post. 

Thank you

[maxsin72]

4 hours ago, IronMike said:

Who said the F14 should win over an F18 all the time? That is question I will leave to ponder here.

Apart from that, please stay civil everyone. @maxsin72 - you are not really helping your case by saying "bla bla" to folks who actually want to make a point to you (aka help you understand), and calling them out. I really like you, I know that you are simply very passionate about this. But please take a step back and stop challenging ppl in the most literal sense of the word. There is a difference if you say "hey, I would really like to test this with someone together, who knows what he is doing" vs "I don't believe your blabla, come at me bro, show me." The fact simply remains that no one needs (or wants) to prove anything to you, so if you want someone to test with you, you need to be a) nicer and b) ask much more politely and c) accept if they say no as well.

Let us all make a bit tabula rasa here please and start fresh, as I know that none of the parties involved mean ill. To the contrary, we all kind of want the same here. Let's not lose focus of that. I would hate to have to lock this thread because we couldn't resist to not being nice to each other.

Thank you.

 

On 11/2/2022 at 11:52 AM, Spurts said:

With enough practice the F-14 can win BFM against any DCS Module.  Period.

 

On 11/2/2022 at 1:01 PM, Spurts said:

I have dominated F/A-18s in the F-14 because it can generate much more lift for tighter turn radii, you just have to practice to be able to still control it. 

 

4 hours ago, IronMike said:

Who said the F14 should win over an F18 all the time? That is question I will leave to ponder here.
 

The person who said " F-14 can win BFM against any DCS Module.  Period. " is in the quotes above. And the same person also said "I have dominated F/A-18s in the F-14 because it can generate much more lift for tighter turn radii", always in the quotes above.

I'm not challenging anybody, i'm only curious to understand if there is something new and useful to learn. Some people simply say i'm wrong but they are not available to explain me on the play ground why i'm wrong. I don't think this is a good way to prove an idea.

And i was not the first who was not nice, i'm always nice with everybody but, if someone is not nice with me, i answer.

You can read the discussion in the last pages of this threads and i think it will be easy to understand how it begun, that said, i will ignore every new polemic post versus my posts.

Thank you

Edited November 4, 2022 by maxsin72

[maxsin72]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Please understand, it's not a good test. You know, as you wanted it - two people dogfighting 14 vs 18 - will not show you anything about the airframes more than the players' skill.

I remember you from some MP roster so it kind of proves your experience and for that alone I'd be glad to "test" with you but, mind you, I live in CET, I have almost zero MP experience myself and due tech reasons it'd have to be zip-lip, even small keyboard talk in VR, would be troublesome. I used to like to fight against AI but recent changes in BFM leave me in dust. They now do plain circles instead of vertical loops and I found I have no chances to keep up with them anymore. Su-27 - ok, but JF-17, MiG-29 or F-16 - no go. So here's my blabla with a bit of a will to fight on a playground.

This is is not bla bla, this is an honest answer that i appreciate, thank you

[maxsin72]

On 11/2/2022 at 1:13 PM, maxsin72 said:

I have about 3k hours of BFM in VR with F14 and i think you have to prove your point on the play ground: are you available to do some test? I'm curious to understand what you mean usings both F14 and F18. So please tell me a multiplayer server on which we could perform some good fights, thank you

 

4 hours ago, IronMike said:

There is a difference if you say "hey, I would really like to test this with someone together, who knows what he is doing" vs "I don't believe your blabla, come at me bro, show me." The fact simply remains that no one needs (or wants) to prove anything to you, so if you want someone to test with you, you need to be a) nicer and b) ask much more politely and c) accept if they say no as well.

 

One last thing, as you can read in the quote above, i think i was nice or am i wrong? Thank you

Edited November 4, 2022 by maxsin72

[RustBelt]

Kiteo, his eyes closed. Zima and Bakor at Anzo.

[Top Jockey]

On 11/4/2022 at 3:33 AM, LanceCriminal86 said:

So, as a friend who is a Hornet enjoyer likes to remind me, there apparently was a letter from the CO of VFA-125 to the Deputy CNO in 1982, where they noted that during a deployment to Yuma earlier in the year they were able to maneuver their F/A-18s into a rear aspect gun or AIM-9 shot on an opposing F-14 in 20 out of 34 engagements, with the F-14s unable to gain a simulated firing solution against an F/A-18 in any of those engagements. Book is "Legacy Hornets: Boeing's F/A-18 A-D Hornets of the USN and USMC by Brad Elward":

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's funny, as some time ago I've also posted that very same info here.

... and predictably, some people readily started devaluing it.

 

My source:

"Modern Military Aicraft, HORNET"

Lou Drendel, Squadron / Signal publications

page 17 (last paragraph)

 

For much that the F-14 Tomcat might be my favourite jet (for several reasons), people also must realize that it isn't the "be all and end all" in a dogfight.

[Jayhawk1971]

This is the quintessence of what I have distilled for myself, from reading and listening to hours worth of pilot interviews, many of whom flew both aircraft during their careers:

"An average pilot in a Tomcat is more likely to lose against an average pilot in a Hornet, whereas an expert Tomcat pilot is more likely to win against an equally experienced Hornet pilot."

[Quid]

26 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

This is the quintessence of what I have distilled for myself, from reading and listening to hours worth of pilot interviews, many of whom flew both aircraft during their careers:

"An average pilot in a Tomcat is more likely to lose against an average pilot in a Hornet, whereas an expert Tomcat pilot is more likely to win against an equally experienced Hornet pilot."

This.

[maxsin72]

4 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

 

 

It's funny, as some time ago I've also posted that very same info here.

... and predictably, some people readily started devaluing it.

 

My source:

"Modern Military Aicraft, HORNET"

Lou Drendel, Squadron / Signal publications

page 17 (last paragraph)

 

For much that the F-14 Tomcat might be my favourite jet (for several reasons), people also must realize that it isn't the "be all and end all" in a dogfight.

You are talking about F14 A, but what about F14 B? 

[Top Jockey]

50 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

You are talking about F14 A, but what about F14 B? 

 

That's also a pertinent question.

However for the F-14B variant, I didn't yet come across specific comparison info with the Hornet so far.