DCS: F-16C Viper Roadmap

[Cepheus76]

@WobblyFlops,

The excerpt is only one example of how radar was used in Operation Desert Storm. In the book, the author describes a multitude of attacks, on structures and vehicles alike, were the targeting was done with the radar or were radar was used to at least find the target. But of course you are right when pointing out that doctrine might have changed in the 15 years between Desert Storm and 2007. Also, a desert environment may be indeed more radar friendly than the Fulda Gap.

@Frederf is also right when pointing out that CCIP was used in the described attack for the delivery. Intersting enough, the author wrote a few times how he put the pipper on the TD-box in the HUD to deliver his bombs. Would be nice to know why CCIP was the preferred mode, could be unit SOPs or perhaps that mode is/ was just better in the F-16 or for free-fall ordnance.

Last, the report referenced by @TLTeo has some very impressive radar screen shots, showing how much can be discerned. However, it is entirely possible, even most probable, that these screen shots are from some aircraft carrying a much larger radar dish than a Hornet or Viper.

[Dragon1-1]

Do note that all serious action the Viper has seen was in the Middle East. Which means, among other things, no clouds. Of course modern Viper pilots will call the A/G radar useless, since the TGP is so much better in almost every case. The exception being clouds. You can't see through the clouds with the TGP. With radar, you can. In NTTR or most ME locations, clouds are usually a non-issue. Try flying around Europe or Korea and the TGP is suddenly not so great, the moment the weather gets bad, you're suddenly blind as a bat. You can try flying under the weather, but depending on the cloud ceiling, that might put you in range of enemy SHORAD, so you may not want to do that. You definitely don't want to cruise down there in the Viper, if only because you don't have the gas for that. If you can do a bomb-on-coordinates JDAM strike, good for you, but that's only an option when you're either attacking a static target or working with a JTAC. If, on the other hand, you're trying to nail a convoy with a CBU ripple behind enemy lines in bad weather, then the radar is your best friend. It can also help you find the target through the clouds before executing a CCIP attack with dumb bombs, with visual acquisition during terminal phase. I wouldn't use the radar for level bombing with dumb bombs, but with CBUs it should be OK.

[whiteladder]

I never quite understood why there is so much hostility to the inclusion/use of A/G radar in the game.  While I understand that it probably hasn`t been the most important sensor in use of the past 20 years, that isn`t to say it wasn`t important in the past and people using DCS might want to replicate missions that weren`t involving Gps/LGB weapons .  There are plenty of examples of it being used in Desert Storm when the weather prevented PGM use. Radar was used as part of the ROE when dropping LGB`s, certainly by the RAF. the ROE precluded dropping LGB unless they had obtained certain radar fixes prior to the drop.  

  Also it isn`t to say it wouldn`t be in the future, as many in the thread have already stated if you are trying to hit a target in Europe/SE Asia you can`t rely on the weather and just as a example you wouldn`t be hitting N54° 50.34’ W004° 55.81 during September with a GPS weapon, would you take the risk of your weapon missing West Freugh airfield and landing in Stonekirk church instead?:

 

Notification Of GPS jamming exercise: West Freugh, 6 September – 4 October 2021

Dates: The exercise will run over the period 6th September – 4th October 2021.

Location:  Jammers will be located within 3 miles from N54° 50.34’ W004° 55.81’ (British National Grid reference NX119533)

Times: 08:30 – 16:00.

Frequencies: 1560 – 1609 MHz, 1212 – 1252 MHz

Worst case areas of effect against a receiver:

• 2m AMSL - Up to 7 km (4 nm), directional.
• 25m AMSL - Up to 20 km (11 nm), directional.
• 70m AMSL - Up to 40 km (22 nm), directional.
• 5,000ft AMSL – Up to 50 km (27 nm) in all directions.
• 10,000ft AMSL – Up to 90 km (49 nm) in all directions.
• 20,000ft AMSL – Up to 90 km (49 nm) in all directions.
• 30,000ft AMSL – Up to 90 km (49 nm) in all directions.
• 40,000ft AMSL – Up to 90 km (49 nm) in all directions

[jaguara5]

Little confused here about the upcoming FM changes. In the viper mini update from 7h August wags   said : 

One of the most important updates we are working on for the Viper is adjusting the angle of attack and G loading models. We’ve been making good progress, and the sustained rates match the reference data well across airspeeds, altitudes, drag indexes, etc. The same can also be said for acceleration and Instantaneous Turns Rates (ITR) below approximately 20k MSL. We do though still need to adjust acceleration and ITR above 20k MSL. This is not a simple matter, and we hope to have this task complete this autumn.

 

So the STR improvements are done, next are  the  g - onset improvements (planned for today, right?) , and what about the ITR ?  Below 20K MSL are the  respective FM changes already released or not?

Edited October 20, 2021 by jaguara5

[Mpkevin]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Do note that all serious action the Viper has seen was in the Middle East. Which means, among other things, no clouds. Of course modern Viper pilots will call the A/G radar useless, since the TGP is so much better in almost every case. The exception being clouds. You can't see through the clouds with the TGP. With radar, you can. In NTTR or most ME locations, clouds are usually a non-issue. Try flying around Europe or Korea and the TGP is suddenly not so great, the moment the weather gets bad, you're suddenly blind as a bat. You can try flying under the weather, but depending on the cloud ceiling, that might put you in range of enemy SHORAD, so you may not want to do that. You definitely don't want to cruise down there in the Viper, if only because you don't have the gas for that. If you can do a bomb-on-coordinates JDAM strike, good for you, but that's only an option when you're either attacking a static target or working with a JTAC. If, on the other hand, you're trying to nail a convoy with a CBU ripple behind enemy lines in bad weather, then the radar is your best friend. It can also help you find the target through the clouds before executing a CCIP attack with dumb bombs, with visual acquisition during terminal phase. I wouldn't use the radar for level bombing with dumb bombs, but with CBUs it should be OK.

This isn’t much of an issue or wasn’t the case in the last previous Iraq/Afghanistan wars. Most of the Bombing runs were CAS , and called in by JTACs on the ground. TGT pods were not as widely used as you may think. For one they were not always available.

in short a majority of A/G strikes by F-16’s in the last 20 years have been Pre planned on TOO with JDAM’s and specific Grid coordinates from ground controllers. Regardless of weather.

 

 

point being the TGT pod is used more in DCS , then typically it is in R/L.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Mpkevin

[Dragon1-1]

In Gulf War TGPs often weren't available, but during mid-2000s, they became commonplace. My point still stands. The pilots say radar is useless because they didn't run into situations where it would be useful. Today, they have a TGP, which is superior in clear weather, and they have GPS guided bombs which make all their onboard sensors a bit moot. Hence, they may be of opinion that the radar isn't any good for air to ground. It's most definitely not very useful for CAS, where you have a JTAC guiding you in anyway, and precision is key. However, the Viper (and the Hornet, as well), also have an all-weather strike role, despite the fact they don't often get to show it off in real combat.

[Frederf]

One of the more difficult aspects of radar bombing is correlating the  radar picture with your intendes target. A TGP will make possible differentiating an enemy tank, friendly truck and civilian building. Radar is just splotches. In CAS this is a scary prospect. Simulating radar images and studying the resulting pictures was important in improving targeting.

Commonly radar bombing was with unguided bombs so inaccuracy in sensor and weapon compound. LGBs are usually no good for obvious reasons. I'm sure IAMs plus later improvements to the radar equipment have made blind bombing more effective.

You can't put CCIP pipper on TD box since the box disappears in CCIP. You could do where it was.

CCIP is significantly better than CCRP in accuracy. On a strike mission the ideal is to see your target and missile step to visual attack. But is there is smoke or whatever reason to not see it in your hectic pop up might as well release CCRP anyway. You might get lucky or cause other damage and it beats dragging bombs back home.

I don't see any hostility towards the AG radar, just an insistence toward authenticity.

[Enduro14]

its a tool in a tool box use it, don't use it, like everything situational dependent.

[Wing]

Looks like the main use of F16C AG radar real world was to detect heavy weather cells

 

As said, more tools for the toolbox. Mission depending, everything can help in the heat of the moment. If it’s a valid system irl - then it should be respected as such in DCS. Simple as.

 

 

[Gianky]

11 hours ago, Cepheus76 said:

Would be nice to know why CCIP was the preferred mode, could be unit SOPs or perhaps that mode is/ was just better in the F-16 or for free-fall ordnance.

Dont' forget Rosey was in one of the first (if not [i]the first[/i]) LANTIRN using unit; as Frederf pointed out, he was probably bombing "visually" at night, using the FLIR image in the HUD (in the excerpt he does say that he saw targets in the HUD). It's been a while since I read the book, I can't recall well, I'll have to check it again.

In any case, if you read the Hornet counterpart of "VIpers in the Storm", Jay Stout's "Hornets over Kuwait", you'll see that Bugs pilot heavily relied on radar bombing, since the Nitehawk FLIR pod wasn't all that good; I recall many attacks made by the author at night with radar (he was a Marine pilot on -A Hornets - at the time, the A/B models were the frontline fighters, IIRC there were only two Charlie squadrons in Desert Storm, on the Saratoga -).

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

this thread has drifted off topic now, when we have new news to share we will make a new thread. 

 

thank you

[Wags]

Edited first post: moved ACM Slew mode and a couple DED pages from 2022 to 2021.

[Wags]

Updated task status.

Kind regards,

Matt

[Wags]

Updated.

[Wags]

VSR radar mode now in development.

[Wags]

Updated OP.