missing info Targeting Pod "Wanders off"

[Yurgon]

9 minutes ago, King39 said:

Image lining up for a JDAM or Maverick strike, pickling, and suddenly the TGP "hops" onto a civilian house or vehicle.

As I said before, I don't know if this current TGP behavior is realistic.

But as far as I know, real life procedures in the A-10C dictate dropping guided weapons on the steerpoint, to avoid exactly the problem you just described. That of course means pilots may have to first create a new waypoint out of their target and set it as steerpoint. All of that takes time. Then again, the downside of leveling a nursery or a hospital because the TGP decided to play wibble-di-wobble in the wrong moment seems fairly compelling to me to rather invest 2 or 3 additional minutes for all the switchology.

Which leaves lasing for terminal guidance, where masking is also an issue. I really wouldn't be surprised if pilots trained a lot in order to learn how to maneuver their aircraft to avoid masking, and potentially also avoid any TGP deadzone.

But again, I don't know if the TGP behavior is realistic or not; it would be great if the devs or someone with in-depth knowledge could clear this up.

[Caldera]

King,

There is only one caveat that I have found out to your method (and mine).  After awhile, if there are allot of targets marked, you can become essentially "Green Blinded" in the HMCS because there are so many mark points so close together.  I find myself trying to balance both out.  When I see the "Gymbal Roll" message I almost always drop a mark point regardless.

The TGP mysteriously jumping, that is just annoying.  I have never really figured out why it does it.    I have read that it has something to do with the TGP camera crossing the bore position.  Sometimes it does it, sometimes it does not.  The effect seems random and I can't really pin down the exact cause. 

I consider it to be gremlin code in the AI that is designed only to frustrated me...

 

Jay,

31 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

If it's a moving target in the TGP, dropping a mark point every couple minutes with the TGP as SOI and putting the STEER switch to MARK will create a line of mark points visible in the HMCS that will visibly guide you back to your target if you lose it.

This sounds like a great idea.  I will try it out!

 

Caldera

Edited January 12, 2022 by Caldera

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

Jay,

This sounds like a great idea.  I will try it out!

 

Caldera

 

We had a recent mission where this was a lifesaver following a vehicle at night.  If it's on the road, you can even drop a markpoint on the next upcoming  intersection.

[ASAP]

3 hours ago, King39 said:

There's just NO WAY this would be allowed to happen IRL. Image lining up for a JDAM or Maverick strike, pickling, and suddenly the TGP "hops" onto a civilian house or vehicle. I know I would have a hard time living with that.

I'm pretty sure the hop as you're describing it isn't an issue in real life, but...

for the JDAM: take a mark and drop on last mark SPI, or pocket it into a steer point and drop on that steerpoint with Steerpoint SPI. Then the TGP can hop all it wants and it doesn't make a difference because the JDAM only cares about the coordinates of your SPI at release.

LGBs don't really care either so long as the SPI is reasonably close to the target and you get the laser back on the target for its terminal phase.

Same for the laser mavericks it guids to the laser energy, as long as it's on the target before impact, you're good.

If you are ensuring you have a good lock with your maverick D/G/H/K model mavericks before rifling it off your TGP is irrelevant.

the only weapon where I see it being a real deal breaker is the AGR-20s because their time of flight is so short. Get another A-10 to buddy lase it for you.

[King39]

1 hour ago, ASAP said:

I'm pretty sure the hop as you're describing it isn't an issue in real life, but...

for the JDAM: take a mark and drop on last mark SPI, or pocket it into a steer point and drop on that steerpoint with Steerpoint SPI. Then the TGP can hop all it wants and it doesn't make a difference because the JDAM only cares about the coordinates of your SPI at release.

LGBs don't really care either so long as the SPI is reasonably close to the target and you get the laser back on the target for its terminal phase.

Same for the laser mavericks it guids to the laser energy, as long as it's on the target before impact, you're good.

If you are ensuring you have a good lock with your maverick D/G/H/K model mavericks before rifling it off your TGP is irrelevant.

the only weapon where I see it being a real deal breaker is the AGR-20s because their time of flight is so short. Get another A-10 to buddy lase it for you.

I've gotten good at marking all of my targets and creating Mark Points but how do you get the TGP to slew to the Mark Point? I can't seem to get it to do that.

[MoppleTheWhale42]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb King39:

I've gotten good at marking all of my targets and creating Mark Points but how do you get the TGP to slew to the Mark Point? I can't seem to get it to do that.

You make the mark point your steer point and then slave the TGP to the current steer point (China hat aft long).

[jaylw314]

37 minutes ago, King39 said:

I've gotten good at marking all of my targets and creating Mark Points but how do you get the TGP to slew to the Mark Point? I can't seem to get it to do that.

• Make sure the STEER switch on the AAP is set to MARK.
• Select the correct markpoint as the current steerpoint
• China Hat Aft long to slave TGP to current steerpoint OR make current steerpoint SPI with TMS Aft long, then slave all to SPI with China Hat Forward Long

[ASAP]

49 minutes ago, King39 said:

I've gotten good at marking all of my targets and creating Mark Points but how do you get the TGP to slew to the Mark Point? I can't seem to get it to do that.

There are a couple of ways to do it, here are the most common ones >>

TMS right short makes a mark, TMS right long makes last mark SPI, CHINA HAT Forward Long slaves all to it.

Or you can hit the function 8 on the UFCP (does the same as moving the STEER switch on the AAP to mark) to use the mark point database as your steerpoints

or you can take the mark, the CDU will automatically switch over to the markpoint page, you hit the line select key next to #? to dump the mark into the next mission waypoint, then make that your STPT

If you steer to waypt 51 and then select down it will go to mark Z (if there is one) or to your last markpoint. If it goes to mark Z select rocker down again and it will go to your last markpoint. If you do that any new markpoint you make will automatically become your steerpoint. I like to do that if I'm following something thats moving on the pod. Leaves me a trail of breadcrumbs and I can Slave all to steerpoint real quick if I lose the lock. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by ASAP

[Caldera]

King,

17 hours ago, King39 said:

I've gotten good at marking all of my targets and creating Mark Points but how do you get the TGP to slew to the Mark Point? I can't seem to get it to do that.

The Steer Point has to be the Mark Point

TMS Aft Long --> Reset SPI to Steer Point

CH Fwd Long --> Slave all to SPI

Do that if you get discombobulated.  These two are SPI commands.

CH Aft Long --> Slave TGP to Steer Point

This one is a TGP command.

 

Most times I am using the TGP.  If it was a difficult target to acquire and mark or if my confidence in the TGP jumping off or faulting is higher, then I will do a CH Aft Long just prior to the attack run.  I do this just be sure that the TGP is looking where I want it to look.  If the TGP does mess up and goes out to Nah-Nah Land mid attack I can quickly reset the TGP and use CH Aft Long to get it quickly back where I want to be.  The HMD is your best friend for knowing where the SPI is and where the TGP is looking, but you don't get to use it when your nose is pointed at the target.  You can also check the TAD to make sure the TGP is on top the SPI is on top the Mark Point.

The problem is that sometimes I might not know which sensor actually holds the SPI.  If it is the TGP and the TGP wanders off so does the SPI.  As you know, this is the whole reason to using Mark Points in these cases.

 

You should also know about a glitch.  If you use CH Aft Long, the gate cross in the TGP will expand.  If you try to drop a GBU-12 or GBU-10 using auto lase with these gates expanded you will get a failure to lase error as soon as the bomb comes off the rail.  It seems that the laser gets confused and sometimes has a hard time just turning on, which you now have to do manually, after that happens.  All you have to do is slew the TGP ever so slightly and the gate will return to normal.

Caldera

Edited January 13, 2022 by Caldera

[King39]

Thank you All for this great advice. I've just tried it and it works for me now. Too bad we can't pin or sticky these posts. I think it would be a big help to some people.

Hope you all had a nice holiday season,

John

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

You should also know about a glitch.  If you use CH Aft Long, the gate cross in the TGP will expand.  If you try to drop a GBU-12 or GBU-10 using auto lase with these gates expanded you will get a failure to lase error as soon as the bomb comes off the rail.  It seems that the laser gets confused and sometimes has a hard time just turning on, which you now have to do manually, after that happens.  All you have to do is slew the TGP ever so slightly and the gate will return to normal.

Caldera

 

I think you can also just do TMS Up short to put the TGP in AREA track mode to get it out of slaved mode.  That way a sudden muscle spasm won't shoot the TGP off into the sunset  

Almost every sensor tells you WHERE the SPI is, but the only place the tells you WHICH sensor is SPI is the data block in the lower left of the HUD, so I make that part of my pre-attack workflow.

Edited January 13, 2022 by jaylw314

[King39]

One thing I've noticed recently is the SPI birthday cake starts to sort off wander on it's own. Not really searching just wandering. Some times I've had to power cycle the TGP just to get it to stop doing that.

Edited January 13, 2022 by King39

[Caldera]

King,

Was that likely when the SPI is being held by the TGP and the TGP is  wandering off?  I notice this occurring when the TGP has or is developing a gymbal fault.

The "Gymbal Roll" fault text on the TGP MFCD has a little caret indicating a direction.  The caret will be left or right of the text.  Hopefully, for this topic some one more knowledgeable will weigh in.  But what I was told by a squaddy is that if you turn in the direction of the caret you have a better chance of un-winding the TGP.  The TGP can recover itself quite allot of the time.  It can even go into what I call a hard fault, where I have to place the the TGP in STBY then back in AG for it to reset.  Where normally, I would just press the TGP MFCD top right button (OSB 5).

Caldera

Edited January 13, 2022 by Caldera

[Ready]

26 minutes ago, Caldera said:

King,

Was that likely when the SPI is being held by the TGP and the TGP is  wandering off?  I notice this occurring when the TGP has or is developing a gymbal fault.

The "Gymbal Roll" fault text on the TGP MFCD has a little caret indicating a direction.  The caret will be left or right of the text.  Hopefully, for this topic some one more knowledgeable will weigh in.  But what I was told by a squaddy is that if you turn in the direction of the caret you have a better chance of un-winding the TGP.  The TGP can recover itself quite allot of the time.  It can even go into what I call a hard fault, where I have to place the the TGP in STBY then back in AG for it to reset.  Where normally, I would just press the TGP MFCD top right button (OSB 5).

Caldera

 

Yes I experience this too, which is why I try to consider the TGP when maneuvering and if neccessary just drop a markpoint. 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

King,

Was that likely when the SPI is being held by the TGP and the TGP is  wandering off?  I notice this occurring when the TGP has or is developing a gymbal fault.

The "Gymbal Roll" fault text on the TGP MFCD has a little caret indicating a direction.  The caret will be left or right of the text.  Hopefully, for this topic some one more knowledgeable will weigh in.  But what I was told by a squaddy is that if you turn in the direction of the caret you have a better chance of un-winding the TGP.  The TGP can recover itself quite allot of the time.  It can even go into what I call a hard fault, where I have to place the the TGP in STBY then back in AG for it to reset.  Where normally, I would just press the TGP MFCD top right button (OSB 5).

Caldera

 

I haven't figured out or paid attention to whether having the TGP in INR mode ensures it comes back to the proper target after a Gimbal Roll fail.  In theory, it should, since it's simply returning to a position on the ground once the gimbals untwist there knickers, while POINT and AREA track would be trying (and often failing) to reacquire a video image).  

[King39]

Quote

King,

Was that likely when the SPI is being held by the TGP and the TGP is  wandering off?  I notice this occurring when the TGP has or is developing a gymbal fault.

I don't think it has to do with Gumball Roll. The "Wandering SPI" seems to be a slow, clockwise rotation of the SPI. I've only noticed this new TGP irritation within the last few months or so.

The TGO "Hop" seems to be separate from Gumball Roll. I don't think they are connected. They seem to be mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with each other.

The Hop occurs fairly regularly especially at distances with 3 miles where Gumball Roll seems to occur when flying on orbit with the TGP fixed, say, spying on the local talent sunbathing on the beach and you forget to unwind it or boresight it.

[jaylw314]

I just noticed something on this very well known HUD cam footage.  At about 6:05, right after the pilot says "in for a dip(?) check", you'll see the TGP diamond co-located on the steerpoint as he turns in.  As the steerpoint enters the HUD, you'll see the TGP diamond make a clockwise roll around the HUD and settle back on the steerpoint.  The spin is a little slower than what we see in DCS, but it's the first IRL data I've seen that confirms the TGP does do something like this.

 

 

[Yurgon]

43 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

The spin is a little slower than what we see in DCS, but it's the first IRL data I've seen that confirms the TGP does do something like this.

Great catch!

[King39]

Just watched this footage again and it looks to me like he was boresighting the TGP (possibly after the Gimball Roll warning) and not the TGP "Hop" which is discussed in this thread. But I could be wrong. 

I would REALLY like the opinion of an ex-Hog driver whether this "Hop" does actually occur or is a DCS-specific aberration. 

[ASAP]

It’s the pod hitting the gimbal limit and unwinding. Does it automatically. That’s a real thing. In the video it never snaps back to being centered in the HUD. Wasn’t the pilot hitting boresight. He was also rolling in to make a mark with the HDC so there isn’t much of a chance he was also also messing with the TGP while doing that. 

9 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I just noticed something on this very well known HUD cam footage.  At about 6:05, right after the pilot says "in for a dip(?) check", you'll see the TGP diamond co-located on the steerpoint as he turns in.  As the steerpoint enters the HUD, you'll see the TGP diamond make a clockwise roll around the HUD and settle back on the steerpoint.  The spin is a little slower than what we see in DCS, but it's the first IRL data I've seen that confirms the TGP does do something like this.

 

 

Yup. Dip check. You pull the target and the steer container into the HUD to see where it is (this video predates HMCS).  He had the friendly steerpoint selected so he could see where they are in relation to the target he was marking with his HDC.  

[jaylw314]

56 minutes ago, ASAP said:

It’s the pod hitting the gimbal limit and unwinding. Does it automatically. That’s a real thing. In the video it never snaps back to being centered in the HUD. Wasn’t the pilot hitting boresight. He was also rolling in to make a mark with the HDC so there isn’t much of a chance he was also also messing with the TGP while doing that. 

I figure it's some kind of gimbal lock effect (not gimbal limit).  If it was some kind of gimbal limit, the TGP diamond would just "crash" into a barrier and not go any further.  It's telling that it spins around a point right about where our TGP spins around, although our TGP seems to maintain track a little closer to that point

Edited January 23, 2023 by jaylw314

[A10Yoda]

The TGP works close enough to accurate, besides the actual imagery, in my opinion.  Real TGP have attitudes just like any other equipment.

That said, real training with someone that understands Gimbal and point track framing will help you maintain constant track.

Problem is, when it doesn't work the way you imagine it working and how it is suppose to work come to a head for a simulator. 

Start using Ground Stabilize as an option to help the TGP from wondering when it loses point track, start setting markpoints to quickly un-gimbaling the TGP, etc..

Training can fix all problems.  Lightning pods in real life are temperamental in certain temperatures and other settings and are susceptible to failure.  Have backup plans..

[BuzzU]

I don't remember the Hornet doing this. Don't the Hog and Hornet use the same TGP?

[TheGhostOfDefi]

On 1/25/2023 at 1:12 PM, BuzzU said:

I don't remember the Hornet doing this. Don't the Hog and Hornet use the same TGP?

The movement a Hornet does differs strongly. The same Pod has to do way more movement on a Hog than on a Hornet. High and Low altitude a some factors for example. What for weapons you do employ and how you turn all differs in general.

Edited January 26, 2023 by TheGhostOfDefi

[BuzzU]

That makes sense.