F-15E WIP Update Discussion

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Okay, I stand corrected. So it would be 56 then.

[Bananabrai]

7 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

No miles on Steam unfortunately. 

 

But I do have about a billion and one "Steam points" that I can use to buy completely useless avatars and other such trash.

That's only one reason to not use steam for DCS.

Plus Steam is taking 30% of the share which otherwise could be in ED's or 3rd party hands.

[tomcat_driver]

14 minutes ago, Bananabrai said:

That's only one reason to not use steam for DCS.

Plus Steam is taking 30% of the share which otherwise could be in ED's or 3rd party hands.

Yeah, but it also allows the exposure of DCS to all the Steam's public, which is not negligible.

[Nahen]

2 hours ago, tomcat_driver said:

Yeah, but it also allows the exposure of DCS to all the Steam's public, which is not negligible.

I think the free DCS bundle with the TF-51 and Su-25 is enough to "reach the Steam community". And so, sooner or later, more serious flyers switch to standalone and beta and buy more modules rather directly from ED just so that ED has more money for development. It's quite logical.

I bet that if you did the research, it would turn out that the greatest use of free mods, at the same time going hand in hand with the smallest number of purchased modules, are Steam accounts.

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

That's only one reason to not use steam for DCS.

Plus Steam is taking 30% of the share which otherwise could be in ED's or 3rd party hands.

 

I know, and you are right, but for some reason I started using DCS with Steam years ago, and it works and it's easy and I'll stay with it. Also, Steam allows returns. So I can get a new release and have up to two-hours with it to decide if I want it or not. I've returned four or five modules, and ended up buying them all back later except one.

 

And I like the Steam wallet. My DCS money is sitting there waiting for Strike Eagles and new maps. My pre-orders are pre-paid. That works for me.

[BIGNEWY]

please do not derail the topic here. 

Its personal choice regarding steam and stand alone, each have their qualities. 

 

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, Nahen said:

I bet that if you did the research, it would turn out that the greatest use of free mods, at the same time going hand in hand with the smallest number of purchased modules, are Steam accounts

Unless you are prepared to bet more than Steam Points, I'd be prepared to meet that bet  

Steam not only has a much greater reach, it also comes with a badge of trust. There are many people who are much more willing to trust Steam with a purchase than a (apologies) rather obscure developer who seems to have (apologies again) tight ties with Russia. Furthermore, many people also tend to standardize on a single game hub (these people prefer to buy only from Steam, and eschew Origin, EA, Ubisoft, Rockstar, and all the other individual vendors that offer their own store and wait until that title becomes available on Steam) for convenience, not to save money. 

For illustration, I've been working in the past with a (Mac-based, so a slightly different customer space) software company, and the difference in income generated via a big market like Apple's Mac App Store and the company's own web-based store was eye-opening. Even though their own web store netted some 90% of a single sale's income (minus referrals and coupons), the sheer volume income on the MAS eclipsed their web-based store's income -- even though they only got 70% of the proceeds from MAS. As their CEO told me laconically: "I prefer to have 70% of something over having 100% of nothing". 

I'd be willing to bet that Steam generates a much higher contribution (a factor of 10 or more) than ED's own store. Although I'm loath to see ED losing out on those 30% that Steam pockets, I'm happier to see ED receive good contribution on sales that they would otherwise not make, or would have to spend a lot more (in terms of marketing etc) to make.

So I think that Steam customers are not grifters nor the gateway to profitable ED-store customers. I (assert without a shred of proof) that Steam-based clients make out a sizable, if not the majority, of all paying ED customers. 

To me the important thing isn't how a customer purchases their ED fix. It's important that they purchase from ED  

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by cfrag

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Nahen said:

And so, sooner or later, more serious flyers switch to standalone and beta . . .

 

I use the open beta on Steam and would consider myself a "serious flyer", whatever that means. 

 

Now, as for getting back on topic... where's my Strike Eagle? I have plans for beeg badabooms. Is it confirmed we're getting the 4000lb LGB?  

 

[Njinsa]

5000 lbs GBU-28 should be on EA or later during the 2023, if we stick to the Discord rumors.

 

 

[Nahen]

43 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Unless you are prepared to bet more than Steam Points, I'd be prepared to meet that bet  

Steam not only has a much greater reach, it also comes with a badge of trust. There are many people who are much more willing to trust Steam with a purchase than a (apologies) rather obscure developer who seems to have (apologies again) tight ties with Russia. Furthermore, many people also tend to standardize on a single game hub (these people prefer to buy only from Steam, and eschew Origin, EA, Ubisoft, Rockstar, and all the other individual vendors that offer their own store and wait until that title becomes available on Steam) for convenience, not to save money. 

For illustration, I've been working in the past with a (Mac-based, so a slightly different customer space) software company, and the difference in income generated via a big market like Apple's Mac App Store and the company's own web-based store was eye-opening. Even though their own web store netted some 90% of a single sale's income (minus referrals and coupons), the sheer volume income on the MAS eclipsed their web-based store's income -- even though they only got 70% of the proceeds from MAS. As their CEO told me laconically: "I prefer to have 70% of something over having 100% of nothing". 

I'd be willing to bet that Steam generates a much higher contribution (a factor of 10 or more) than ED's own store. Although I'm loath to see ED losing out on those 30% that Steam pockets, I'm happier to see ED receive good contribution on sales that they would otherwise not make, or would have to spend a lot more (in terms of marketing etc) to make.

So I think that Steam customers are not grifters nor the gateway to profitable ED-store customers. I (assert without a shred of proof) that Steam-based clients make out a sizable, if not the majority, of all paying ED customers. 

To me the important thing isn't how a customer purchases their ED fix. It's important that they purchase from ED  

 

 

I can judge based on "my own environment".
About 300-500 people visit each year, some come for a few days, others for a few weeks, and others disappear after a few months. These are the people who most often have the "Steam edition", bought one module or fly the Su-25 most often. Those who stay for a little longer decide to buy a module and after some time the contact ends. In my experience, they don't even master this module 100% - maybe in 50%. Some of these people stay "for a long time". Currently, it's about 200 active people divided between two communities who are on Discord every day, flying an average of two hours a day on online servers. These people 95% of the time they switch to the "standalone" and beta version and buy more modules. They have been with us for several years, some of them do not accept mods at all, some play with mods, mods such as BlackHawk 60L/60R or A-4 appear on our servers.
I definitely hear about different mods more often from the part of people who pops in "for a moment". So, based on that, I'm making my theory. In my opinion, a large part of people who come into contact with DCS via Steam end up at the stage of free "base" plus mods.
Ofcourse Im may wrong.

 

Skipping the issue that I always had problems with the Steam version, especially when creating missions and working in the editor. About 5 years ago I installed the Steam version and very quickly said goodbye to it, since then I have peace of mind ...

Edited January 17, 2023 by Nahen

[Bananabrai]

27 minutes ago, Njinsa said:

5000 lbs GBU-28

Jesus, thats basically it's own aircraft, no, rocketship. Freakin' huge

[cfrag]

1 minute ago, Nahen said:

Some of these people stay "for a long time"

Good point, thank you! I think it may come down to 'mass tourism' vs 'interest tourism' (to avoid judgmental monikers). Of those people who stay on longer, I agree that there is a high probability that they switch to standalone - for good reasons: demonstrating a high degree of support for ED, a trust in ED, and the desire in general to be more involved with DCS/ED. No discussion there, except that there are people (and this may contribute to my bias) who stay on Steam although they have purchased every single module available (including the Hawk), and are currently busily warming up their credit card for the Phantom, Eagle, Sinai, Normy2, Kiowa and anything else that they hope comes off the happily filled production line.

Still, I think it important to remember that a game that scores more than 20 hours of active time can be regarded as a successful game, a game that the customer liked and therefore may recommend to others. So think many of those 'transitional' customers who discovered DCS via Steam and maybe only purchased the 15C or 10A . Even though transitional, they still can be a significant source of income, and they help to broaden the appeal of DCS in the Steam ecosystem by recommending it to others. And Steam is *massive* - so even if most only attract transient paying customers, that will translate into a significant revenue stream. And it can result in people like me who prefer to stay Steam, yet I have racked up in excess of 5k hours over the years (admittedly, much of that time was spent developing missions, but it still counts  - at least to me). Am I the odd one out? Often, yes (if you ask my significant other, that is).

So there's a good likelihood that people who stay on longer and become dedicated fans migrate from Steam to Stand-alone. Since I don't know the numbers involved, and only by judging by rough indicators like steam reviews and ED forum members, I'd say that even though the 'core' stand-alone numbers are impressive and generate good income, the lion's share of ED's income stream is likely to come from Steam.   

[Nahen]

6 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Good point, thank you! I think it may come down to 'mass tourism' vs 'interest tourism' (to avoid judgmental monikers). Of those people who stay on longer, I agree that there is a high probability that they switch to standalone - for good reasons: demonstrating a high degree of support for ED, a trust in ED, and the desire in general to be more involved with DCS/ED. No discussion there, except that there are people (and this may contribute to my bias) who stay on Steam although they have purchased every single module available (including the Hawk), and are currently busily warming up their credit card for the Phantom, Eagle, Sinai, Normy2, Kiowa and anything else that they hope comes off the happily filled production line.

Still, I think it important to remember that a game that scores more than 20 hours of active time can be regarded as a successful game, a game that the customer liked and therefore may recommend to others. So think many of those 'transitional' customers who discovered DCS via Steam and maybe only purchased the 15C or 10A . Even though transitional, they still can be a significant source of income, and they help to broaden the appeal of DCS in the Steam ecosystem by recommending it to others. And Steam is *massive* - so even if most only attract transient paying customers, that will translate into a significant revenue stream. And it can result in people like me who prefer to stay Steam, yet I have racked up in excess of 5k hours over the years (admittedly, much of that time was spent developing missions, but it still counts  - at least to me). Am I the odd one out? Often, yes (if you ask my significant other, that is).

So there's a good likelihood that people who stay on longer and become dedicated fans migrate from Steam to Stand-alone. Since I don't know the numbers involved, and only by judging by rough indicators like steam reviews and ED forum members, I'd say that even though the 'core' stand-alone numbers are impressive and generate good income, the lion's share of ED's income stream is likely to come from Steam.   

I do not deny the reach of Steam and its "strength" in this topic. From the beginning I wrote - I put forward the thesis that if such a study were to be carried out - there would be definitely more free mods among the "Steam DCS community" than in "standalone DCS" community. I may be wrong but that's what I think.

 

OK Im end this OET

Edited January 17, 2023 by Nahen

[Beirut]

I really don't see the merit in applying qualities of seriousness or dedication due to where one buys their toys. Ya buys it where ya buys it and ya flies it where ya flies it.

 

The only thing that matters is - are you having fun?

 

Now... where's my F-15E? 

[Deano87]

1 hour ago, Bananabrai said:

Jesus, thats basically it's own aircraft, no, rocketship. Freakin' huge

The first batch, which were made from old 203mm M110 howitzers artillery barrels only took 17 days from start of development to being used in combat... They were needed in a hurry for the Gulf War for getting to very deep & well fortified C&C bunkers.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Deano87

[Silver_Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Now... where's my F-15E? 

When is done...

54 minutes ago, Nahen said:

I do not deny the reach of Steam and its "strength" in this topic. From the beginning I wrote - I put forward the thesis that if such a study were to be carried out - there would be definitely more free mods among the "Steam DCS community" than in "standalone DCS" community. I may be wrong but that's what I think.

 

That post has not a ED vs Steam...

[Beirut]

25 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

When is done...

 

 

Not an answer adequate to satisfy spoiled children. 

 

I want my F-15E Strike Eagle NOW! 

[Nahen]

Don't shout, just go and get it

[Beirut]

I can't. There is a conspiracy afoot to make me wait. 

 

I'll go blow something up in the Hornet to calm my nerves. 

[YoYo]

5 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

Not an answer adequate to satisfy spoiled children. 

 

I want my F-15E Strike Eagle NOW! 

Two weeks for pre order, next two weeks for release ;).

[Nahen]

It be looooongest month in my life...

[falcon_120]

You are all getting too excited with the 2 weeks after pre-purchase, but it has not been confirmed has it?


Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[av8orDave]

15 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

You are all getting too excited with the 2 weeks after pre-purchase, but it has not been confirmed has it?


Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

^ This, 100%. I got all amped-up and pre-ordered the Apache from ED when it came out, then it was delayed by like 3 or 4 months... that was disappointing. Not sure what the plan is from Razbam but I'd level set expectations until we hear something specific.

[Beirut]

21 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

You are all getting too excited with the 2 weeks after pre-purchase, but it has not been confirmed has it?


Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

 

I don't think anyone really thinks it will be two-weeks.

 

On the other hand, we all know it will be two-weeks. 

[Nahen]

Faith makes miracles...