Vietnam Map

[Victory205]

10 hours ago, Tengu said:

I'd love this map, but I think we need to temper our hopes with some realism about our collective computing power and map-makers' time.  Do we really think ED hasn't seen the 470K posts clamoring for Vietnam?  Do we really imagine that if such a map was quick to make and easy on our graphics cards, that ED would hold back simply out of malice or the failure of imagination that this map might be a money maker.  Come on, guys....

Hopefully, ED gets there one day.  Day 1 purchase, right?  But to say we're disappointed in ED seems a bit much.

Not much chance of SEA happening for a long time now that @LanceCriminal86 got everyone thrown in Hack by @BIGNEWY.  

This is part of why I encouraged you gents to take a look at making the map for yourself. Just performing a cursory, back of the envelope analysis, @Tengu has illustrated the technical challenges that anyone who takes on this project faces. It's easy to sit on your arse and demand things, without bothering to analyze the costs involved. My guess is that this map would end up being a labor of love without regard to financial efficacy.

Another aspect is that Viet Nam is not that interesting geographically. It's restricted as our strike planners (even more constrained by politicians) found out by China to the north, relatively flat terrain to the east of high value targets, and medium terrain to the west that makes options somewhat predictable. The "mountains" are what most would call hills, 8-1200 meters, and they are a long way from places like Hanoi, Haiphong, setting up a 15-20 run in without masking. It gets pretty predictable unless you are able to create a very large map that covers Western Viet Nam, Laos, etc, despite the difficulties that @Tengu listed.

 

[Gianky]

36 minutes ago, Victory205 said:

This is part of why I encouraged you gents to take a look at making the map for yourself.

 

Is it even possible to do that in DCS? While we have several aircraft mods, I've never seen a terrain mod and, from what Japo32 posted above, it looks like without the SDK (which, as I understand, is given to official 3rd party developers only) it's impossibile to actually do that.

[TLTeo]

Meh, the F-4 flew combat pretty much everywhere, including maps that are in DCS right now. Vietnam would be neat for the historical value, but it's not desperately needed to give value to the module like some people seem to think.

[Silver_Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Gianky said:

Is it even possible to do that in DCS? While we have several aircraft mods, I've never seen a terrain mod and, from what Japo32 posted above, it looks like without the SDK (which, as I understand, is given to official 3rd party developers only) it's impossibile to actually do that.

Building maps require the SDK Maps terrain toolkit, none open, only to 3rd Parties.

[Victory205]

You would have to create your own, or commission a third party to do it. Money will be involved, or some sort of deal that makes it worthwhile as a pro bono endeavor. Percentage of increased sales on period aircraft, ground assets, development of new assets, missions, etc.

Sure seems easy from the peanut gallery.

[Silver_Dragon]

7 minutes ago, Victory205 said:

You would have to create your own, or commission a third party to do it. Money will be involved, or some sort of deal that makes it worthwhile as a pro bono endeavor. Percentage of increased sales on period aircraft, ground assets, development of new assets, missions, etc.

Sure seems easy from the peanut gallery.

To create your own, you require talk with ED with the required paperwork to turn to 3rd party, and show any kind of experience on previos projects and a team to make them, only to get the TDK. That is no only money. Commission a actual 3rd parties with access to TDK (only RAZBAM and Ugra Media yet with terrain teams) need enter on negotiation to leave actual projects or wait to complete them. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Silver_Dragon

[Gambit21]

36 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

Meh, the F-4 flew combat pretty much everywhere, including maps that are in DCS right now. Vietnam would be neat for the historical value, but it's not desperately needed to give value to the module like some people seem to think.

The module will be amazing - let’s leave that out if it as you say.

That said - the Mustang also flew in South America...but what map would you really insist on in order to do it justice? 

It’s not about an aircraft worthy of a map, it’s about a map worthy of this module. That is Vietnam - the end.

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, Victory205 said:

Another aspect is that Viet Nam is not that interesting geographically. It's restricted as our strike planners (even more constrained by politicians) found out by China to the north, relatively flat terrain to the east of high value targets, and medium terrain to the west that makes options somewhat predictable. The "mountains" are what most would call hills, 8-1200 meters, and they are a long way from places like Hanoi, Haiphong, setting up a 15-20 run in without masking. It gets pretty predictable unless you are able to create a very large map that covers Western Viet Nam, Laos, etc, despite the difficulties that @Tengu listed.

Any proper Vietnam map would have to include Laos, if only because Thailand, particularly Ubon Ratchatani, home of the Wolfpack and the place from the F-4E actually flew (not sure about Cam Ranh and Da Nang, but they definitely were at Ubon), was beyond it. Ban Karai and Mu Gia passes have quite difficult terrain, and the whole Annamite Range has peaks of over 2500m. Not much compared to Caucasus, but still tall enough when your world is confined to the light of the flare, and you're trying to put bombs on top of a narrow path between a rock wall and the river, many of which can be found along The Trail. Hanoi had its Thud Ridge and MiG Ridge, but it was far from the only place where the Phantoms plied their trade.

[Victory205]

Yes, but the ingresses were done a medium altitude, and trust me, most were agonizingly predictable.

To include the USAF you’d have to include exactly what you mentioned. To do Navy only, then you could do from Danang/Chu Lai northward, and enough to get the famous trail to the west. It all adds up to an enormous undertaking.

If you don’t have the financial resources upfront to pay an established developer, then a convoluted option would be to put together a complex network of aircraft developers and make an agreement to do the map for a percentage of sales. You’d need to convince the existing period aircraft (which includes ED assets), and probably new modules like F105, Mig17, A6, F8, A7, A4 (pay version), Cobra, etc. that they have an interest in chipping in for a SEA map.

It gets unwieldy and untenable pretty quick.

Of course it wold be all worth it if it meant that an F8F Bearcat module would appear as part of the Dien Ben Phu campaign.

 

[TLTeo]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

That said - the Mustang also flew in South America...but what map would you really insist on in order to do it justice? 

This is really not a fair comparison. The Phantom (especially the E model) flew way, way more combat missions around Syria and Iran than anything the Mustang did outside of ww2 and maaaaybe Korea, it's not even a remotely fair comparison

[Silver_Dragon]

14 hours ago, Tengu said:

I'd love this map, but I think we need to temper our hopes with some realism about our collective computing power and map-makers' time.  Do we really think ED hasn't seen the 470K posts clamoring for Vietnam?  Do we really imagine that if such a map was quick to make and easy on our graphics cards, that ED would hold back simply out of malice or the failure of imagination that this map might be a money maker.  Come on, guys.

Any Vietnam map worth making would be huge.  And if you want F-4E / F-105 bases, you need Thailand which is separated from North Vietnam by a third country, Laos.

TLDR

For context, see my comparison to existing maps in the Middle East.  You can probably quibble over my definitions of the existing map edges; I made this before Cyprus.  But it doesn't change that Vietnam is bigger than most people realize and certainly bigger than today's maps.  Off the bat, you have to drop 90% of South Vietnam.

.

That maps has very outdated, Syria map was expanded to the west and a east expansion has coming, the Persian Gulf has more big.


 Actually other maps as Marianas and the incoming RAZBAM South Atlantic has very big.


 Other will be the "claimed" Afganisthan.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Silver_Dragon

[Gambit21]

10 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

This is really not a fair comparison. The Phantom (especially the E model) flew way, way more combat missions around Syria and Iran than anything the Mustang did outside of ww2 and maaaaybe Korea, it's not even a remotely fair comparison

We’ll agree to disagree.

The F4 was designed as a U.S. Navy fighter, then picked up by the U.S. Air Force. THEN exported elsewhere.

It achieved it’s massive noteriety because of Vietnam. Plain and simple.

Just like the P-51 was used elsewhere and by other countries, but achieved it’s noteriety as a U.S. Fighter over Europe in WWII. The analogy is more than fair.

 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Given the performance of the Marianas, I'd be more than a little concerned about modeling the region as much as I'd love it.

[bies]

When it comes to performance it depends solely on level of detail. Strike Fighters had Vietnam map with CPU/GPU requirements of a pocket calculator, because it had level of detail lower than in DCS.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by bies

[DGC338]

Map creation has always intrigued me and the choices that have been made.

Caucaus: the original map.  A five day war between Georgia and Russia, (other potential conflict areas like Ukraine, Turkey, azerbaïdjanais, Armenia not included)

persian gulf: other than the tanker war (though this is a modern map)  and massive potential conflict not much has happened. (Iraq, Kuwait not included) 

Marianas: nothing since WW2 (not really modern as South China Sea has a lot more potential for conflict.)

Nevada: Good for training, limited for other scenarios

Normandy: good WW2 map choice (though not for the majority of the plane set)

channel map: see above 

Syria: an excellent choice of area, historic, current and future conflict area.

falklans: good choice particularly as a plane set is being developed for the theatre. Historic and perhaps future conflict zone.

Afghanistan: fantastic for CAS but not a huge scope for other.

Some of the above choices seem strange to me when you have areas like Korea, Iraq- Iran,  the Balkans, Eastern Europe, India- Pakistan, Egypt-Sinai, South China Sea and Vietnam that have both historic and potential conflicts across multiple eras.

i do love this game and the work is of a super high standard. I do wish that the plane set was more cohesive in era and that perhaps some better map choices were made.

 

[WarbossPetross]

9 часов назад, DGC338 сказал:

Map creation has always intrigued me and the choices that have been made.

Caucaus: the original map.  A five day war between Georgia and Russia, (other potential conflict areas like Ukraine, Turkey, azerbaïdjanais, Armenia not included)

That and 15 years of absolute Warhammer compared to which Afghanistan was a nursery school by the admission of veterans who served in both conflicts. Although from that point of view the map could really use some expansion east to Caspian sea to include Dagestan.

[Northstar98]

14 hours ago, DGC338 said:

Map creation has always intrigued me and the choices that have been made.

Caucaus: the original map.  A five day war between Georgia and Russia, (other potential conflict areas like Ukraine, Turkey, azerbaïdjanais, Armenia not included)

Even with this, the map misses out Poti's port (a major target during the war), and Marnueli air base (the main operating base of the Georgian AF)

14 hours ago, DGC338 said:

persian gulf: other than the tanker war (though this is a modern map)  and massive potential conflict not much has happened. (Iraq, Kuwait not included)

Yeah, that always kinda bothers me.

It's good for UAE/Oman vs Iran, but even for the tanker war or more recent skirmishes, we're missing assets.

14 hours ago, DGC338 said:

Marianas: nothing since WW2 (not really modern as South China Sea has a lot more potential for conflict.)

Nevada: Good for training, limited for other scenarios

Normandy: good WW2 map choice (though not for the majority of the plane set)

channel map: see above 

Syria: an excellent choice of area, historic, current and future conflict area.

All agreed.

14 hours ago, DGC338 said:

falklans: good choice particularly as a plane set is being developed for the theatre. Historic and perhaps future conflict zone.

Actual modules seem further out though, and the map is post Falklands War (though the only difference is Mount Pleasant, and maybe the longer runway at Stanley. Though maybe RAZBAM will do a Falklands War appropriate map).

We are getting assets though.

14 hours ago, DGC338 said:

Afghanistan: fantastic for CAS but not a huge scope for other.

It should be good for both the Soviet-Afghan war and more recent War in Afghanistan. It's only naval that's getting missed out.

14 hours ago, DGC338 said:

i do love this game and the work is of a super high standard. I do wish that the plane set was more cohesive in era and that perhaps some better map choices were made.

Absolutely agreed, I wish DCS would've picked a partcular era (don't mind which), maybe focusing on a real or potential conflict, then fleshed it out with modules, assets and maps (at least as fleshed out as WWII is today), before moving onto something else, instead of the current approach where everything is a jumbled up mix that besides from a few exceptions don't really fit well together from a historical perspective.

This was spoken about in more detail, here.

[Rich-Doe]

I think splitting one map into three, made simultaneously by ED and two other third parties would be a more realistic prospect.

e.g. South Vietnam/Cambodia, then upper South/Lower North/Cambodia/Laos with the demilitarized zone at its centre and finally upper North/Laos.

[AbuMuqawama]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:18 PM, bies said:

When it comes to performance it depends solely on level of detail. Strike Fighters had Vietnam map with CPU/GPU requirements of a pocket calculator, because it had level of detail lower than in DCS.

 

 

 

SF also cheated somewhat. The map wasn't 1 to 1, it was reduced in size. As I recall it was 50% or 25% the size of the area in reality. That's not to knock SF, it was a very good game and it required some analysis to come to that realization, but that was what they did to manage to do it.

[upyr1]

On 2/1/2022 at 6:19 PM, Rich-Doe said:

I think splitting one map into three, made simultaneously by ED and two other third parties would be a more realistic prospect.

e.g. South Vietnam/Cambodia, then upper South/Lower North/Cambodia/Laos with the demilitarized zone at its centre and finally upper North/Laos.

as long as there is a way to have them function as one for a mission this would be cool

[Mike Force Team]

Upyr1, there is possibility that Razbam might be working on a Viet Nam map.  This is my opinion, of course.  I watched a YouTube video where the developers that created the South Atlantic Map said they are "working on other maps."  Unfortunately, the developers would not reveal the other maps they are working on.  

I, too, would like to see a Viet Nam map available.  If a Viet Nam map is likely planned, it could be around the time they release their F-4 Phantom.  

As for Razbam's history, the do show their works-in-program (WIP) screenshots on various projects they are working on.  In the meantime, we wait until ED and Razbam are ready to release more information in the future.

MFT

[streakeagle]

On 1/27/2022 at 1:48 AM, Tengu said:

I'd love this map, but I think we need to temper our hopes with some realism about our collective computing power and map-makers' time.  Do we really think ED hasn't seen the 470K posts clamoring for Vietnam?  Do we really imagine that if such a map was quick to make and easy on our graphics cards, that ED would hold back simply out of malice or the failure of imagination that this map might be a money maker.  Come on, guys.

Any Vietnam map worth making would be huge.  And if you want F-4E / F-105 bases, you need Thailand which is separated from North Vietnam by a third country, Laos.

TLDR

For context, see my comparison to existing maps in the Middle East.  You can probably quibble over my definitions of the existing map edges; I made this before Cyprus.  But it doesn't change that Vietnam is bigger than most people realize and certainly bigger than today's maps.  Off the bat, you have to drop 90% of South Vietnam.

.

So I toyed around with Google maps to just see what a "minimum" Vietnam Map might look like.  I encourage anyone to check / correct my work, but this is what I came up - a 600km x 800km box.  I believe this is broadly equivalent, probably a bit larger than the Cyprus-Syria map.  (Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)  I believe South Atlantic will be larger, but then that also has a lot of the... Atlantic.

So let's do edge patrol.  Coming down the eastern edge, Blue Air could have the Navy and Marine jets flying from whatever carrier model you parked at Yankee Station or fly from Da Nang.  I placed the borders to include these two "bases".  Chu Lai was a major Marine A-4 base.  I believe Pleiku was more a SAR / FAC base.  But, you've got to put the border some place.  Other bases like Cam Ranh are way south.

Moving west along the southern edge, you leave Vietnam, cross Laos, and enter Thailand.  The map borders shown just include Ubon.  If you're thinking F-4s and F-105s, that primarily means Ubon, Korat, and Taklhi.  If you look really carefully, there's an unlabelled red dot for Korat at Nakhon Ratchasima.  And if you look to the left of the "T" in Thailand, that red dot is Takhli.  Col Olds and his 'stache were based at Ubon.

Moving up the western edge, you have Udorn.  This was mainly a recce base, but had F-4s for much of the war including 555th.  I'm guessing you could fly E models from here during the '72 Easter Offensive.  Stretching the map west to Udorn also nets us Dien Bien Phu for our French friends.

I'd argue this is an extremely heavy (graphically intensive) map.  Beyond the air bases, you'd need to model the urban areas of Hanoi, Haiphong and Hue.  Pretty much anything green corresponds with mountain ranges when you compare relief maps.  That white bit around Dien Bien Phu and Son La are also quite mountainous even if they appear white on this map.  If you're thinking Laos must be all mountains, well yeah...  Half this map by surface area is mountains and highlands.  There's also plenty of rain forest, bamboo, sawgrass and the like covering those mountains and valleys.  What's the ratio of trees to frame rate?

For multiplayer, I think there might have been an airstrip in Dong Hoi, due west of Yankee Station.  If you want air quake, maybe you make Khe Sanh and Dong Hoi your blue-red bases.  For "authentic" air missions, your blue and red bases are mainly 500-600km apart.  Haifa to Adana / Incirlik is around 470km for reference.  Even this "minimum" map to get you a little of everything is huge. 

Hopefully, ED gets there one day.  Day 1 purchase, right?  But to say we're disappointed in ED seems a bit much.

If this map could be made without a performance hit, then it would do a great job for Linebacker I era missions. It permits flying the historical USAF routes from Udorn and Ubon over the "gorilla head" as well as USN operations from Yankee Station. Having both Da Nang and Nakhon Phanom is just icing on the cake.

[upyr1]

10 hours ago, Mike Force Team said:

Upyr1, there is possibility that Razbam might be working on a Viet Nam map.  This is my opinion, of course.  I watched a YouTube video where the developers that created the South Atlantic Map said they are "working on other maps."  Unfortunately, the developers would not reveal the other maps they are working on.  

I, too, would like to see a Viet Nam map available.  If a Viet Nam map is likely planned, it could be around the time they release their F-4 Phantom.  

As for Razbam's history, the do show their works-in-program (WIP) screenshots on various projects they are working on.  In the meantime, we wait until ED and Razbam are ready to release more information in the future.

MFT

For some reason I am thinking that razbam is working on a 1960s asset pack. If that's the case then we'll either see a Vietnam or Fulda gap map 

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

please remember the rules when posting here. they can be found at the top. 

1.15 includes not discussing other simulators here. 

thank you

[Rick50]

On 2/8/2022 at 9:27 AM, Mike Force Team said:

Upyr1, there is possibility that Razbam might be working on a Viet Nam map.  This is my opinion, of course.  I watched a YouTube video where the developers that created the South Atlantic Map said they are "working on other maps."  Unfortunately, the developers would not reveal the other maps they are working on.  

I, too, would like to see a Viet Nam map available..  

That would be nice!

I kinda think though that they might have picked another area.

Vietnam would have absolutely mind-boggling object count to do it properly.

I think maybe Europe or Korea might be more likely, fewer trees to render, and highly desired.

 

On 2/8/2022 at 9:27 AM, Mike Force Team said:

If a Viet Nam map is likely planned, it could be around the time they release their F-4 Phantom.  

 

Although I'd be enthusiastic for this map... I'd guess that this is unlikely. Because the Phantom is apparently gonna release sometime this year. Yet Raz' South Atlantic map isn't even yet released, albeit hopefully releasing this year.  We've not seen any big announcements about Raz doing another map, at least I dont recall hearing that, and usually we tend to hear about an upcomming map roughly 2 to 3 years ahead of release, a rough idea of where the map represents.  I think the Mariannas map was announced maybe 1.5 to 2 years before release, Syria map maybe 3 or more years? Not that there's any reason for anyone to tell us that far in advance, if they are being sekrit squirls and have sneaky phantom-like maps in the works, I'm not opposed to it!! 

Imagine if a new map appears one day for purchase in the ED store...