AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Oberst Struppi said:

Fired a Phoenix on 29k feet @ 28nm range to the bandit in PD STT
   We did keep up the Vc as high as possible. The bandit was going defensive until the missile was under 10nm range (like it was pitbull).

54 will not go active in PD-STT.

What was 23's AI skill difficulty? Keep in mind we finally have AI BVR upgraded so the ace live up to its name now.

I have a question to all the pilots who expect their missiles to hit every time. Do you also go down every time bandit shots at you?

[Biggus]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

What was 23's AI skill difficulty? Keep in mind we finally have AI BVR upgraded so the ace live up to its name now.

This cannot be overemphasized.

If you send a salvo of four -54s at a flight of four bandits now, they'll all defend as soon as the first missile goes active.  You might hit the first one, but the rest will probably escape.  The days of wholesale slaughter from six-phoenix volleys are over. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Biggus

[Ephedrin]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb draconus:

54 will not go active in PD-STT.

It's not helpful if you take partial sentences out of context and reverse them with pointless yet obvious statements to make others look stupid. This was a Tomcat versus a Mig23 in a 28 miles engagement. Go figure and leave the analysis to people who bother instead of praise blindly.

[Noctrach]

I feel a lot of these issues are people conflating DCS-isms with Phoenix modeling.

Facts:

• Chaff modeling in DCS is far removed from realism. You can have an unbroken, MPRF STT on a modern pulse dopper radar and your missiles will still just follow a dice-roll on 6 second old chaff outside its seeker FOV for a target below the radar horizon.
• Netcode in DCS is poor, and the AWG-9 is quite sensitive to this so long range multiplayer engagements will have its share of jank
• Guidance modeling is too crude and will remain too crude for the near future to accurately simulate full missile behaviours such as range/velocity gating and optimised intercept geometry.

The Phoenix, like all missiles, suffers from these sim-isms and will continue to do so until ED finishes the missile API. Even then some of this will remain present as an ED design choice or technical limitation for a sim environment.

This is why its important for folks to bring tacviews to these discussions that show whether its a real bug or a DCSism causing their shot to miss. Otherwise we just degenerate into "phoenix is 100% broken" vs "works on my end".

The Moon Mission Phoenixes might have to do with the AWG-9 + overlofting + netcode resulting in an impossible intercept solution at long ranges, but we'll need some data to look at if we want a constructive discussion here.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Noctrach

[IronMike]

Against 4x Su-27, set to Ace, recent OB, first and only try.

The proximity fuze not going off on 2 of them, is indeed mildly infuriating, but that unfortunately is nothing on our side.  EDIT: rewatching the tacview it did not get closer than 286 feet, which means not in range of the proximity fuze. 

1 maneuvering himself into the ground = maneuver kill, I take it. Else the phoenix did it's job quite well, and the outcome speaks for itself.

Also, would anyone here complain about those 2 ETs in the same way? It's a give and take on both sides of the isle so to speak...

4xSU27 Ace.zip.acmi

Edited May 30, 2022 by IronMike

[Spartan111sqn]

24 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Against 4x Su-27, set to Ace, recent OB, first and only try.

The proximity fuze not going off on 2 of them, is indeed mildly infuriating, but that unfortunately is nothing on our side. 1 maneuvering himself into the ground = maneuver kill, I take it. Else the phoenix did it's job quite well, and the outcome speaks for itself.

Also, would anyone here complain about those 2 ETs in the same way? It's a give and take on both sides of the isle so to speak...

4xSU27 Ace.zip.acmi 353.57 kB · 2 downloads

I watched it, thanks for the acmi.

 

one quesion.

how did you manage to lock both targets and shoot them in less than 10nm and looking down?

[IronMike]

11 minutes ago, Spartan111sqn said:

one quesion.

how did you manage to lock both targets and shoot them in less than 10nm and looking down?

SA based recommit + PAL, both in quick succession and with help of spotting their missile fumes.

[Spartan111sqn]

I thought ini PAL they were semiactive, they are not?

[IronMike]

8 minutes ago, Spartan111sqn said:

I thought ini PAL they were semiactive, they are not?

Nope, PAL = PSTT which means automatically active at this range. IIRC PSTT within 20nm = automatically active.

[Spartan111sqn]

44 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Nope, PAL = PSTT which means automatically active at this range. IIRC PSTT within 20nm = automatically active.

Thanks a lot!

[IronMike]

2 hours ago, Spartan111sqn said:

Thanks a lot!

small correction, just verified, PSTT = always active off the rail, regardless of distance.

[IronMike]

On 5/29/2022 at 12:58 AM, Oberst Struppi said:

- Fired a Phoenix on 29k feet @ 28nm range to the bandit in PD STT
   We did keep up the Vc as high as possible. The bandit was going defensive until the missile was under 10nm range (like it was pitbull). Totally stupid.
   Missile lost obviously guidance even under constant PD STT lock. Lock was steady on the AWG9.

Your missile pretty surely went for chaff there. Happens, it is a dice-roll in DCS, so you can thank the RNG gods for this. One is not very representative in that manner btw. Also, ofc the bandit was defending the missile all the way, since you fired in PDSTT, aka you announced your shot from the get go. Can benefit or not, but don't expect a bandit to actively fly nilly willy into your missile launch. You would not either, would you? And as mentioned above, the missile does not go active in PDSTT.

As for AIM7 and AIM9 I will not say anything, because it has absolutely nothing to do with us, and is 100% ED side of things. We simply use there, what DCS offers, and Tomcat or other module, they are all the same missiles acting in the same way.

[Callsign JoNay]

9 hours ago, IronMike said:

The proximity fuze not going off on 2 of them, is indeed mildly infuriating, but that unfortunately is nothing on our side.  EDIT: rewatching the tacview it did not get closer than 286 feet, which means not in range of the proximity fuze. 

Sorry if this fuels your mild infuriation, but here's a shot of mine that got within the threshold you mentioned and didn't go boom.

[GGTharos]

The effective prozimity fuzing on the Phoenix is ~50' (15).   Don't expect it to go boom at longer distances.

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Sorry if this fuels your mild infuriation, but here's a shot of mine that got within the threshold you mentioned and didn't go boom.

yeah, like GG mentions above, the proximity fuze is set to 15 meters in the aim54, with the 286 feet I simply meant it was far, far away from proximity fuze parameters. Additionally, the proximity fuze not going off is as we think confined to MP only and affects all missiles alike. In SP proximity fuze not going off is unlikely to be encountered at all.

[Callsign JoNay]

15 minutes ago, IronMike said:

yeah, like GG mentions above, the proximity fuze is set to 15 meters in the aim54, with the 286 feet I simply meant it was far, far away from proximity fuze parameters. Additionally, the proximity fuze not going off is as we think confined to MP only and affects all missiles alike. In SP proximity fuze not going off is unlikely to be encountered at all.

Ahh, gotcha. I misinterpreted. Yeah I was thinking "286 feet? Really? Seems kinda far, but if Iron Mike says so..."

[nighthawk2174]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

yeah, like GG mentions above, the proximity fuze is set to 15 meters in the aim54, with the 286 feet I simply meant it was far, far away from proximity fuze parameters. Additionally, the proximity fuze not going off is as we think confined to MP only and affects all missiles alike. In SP proximity fuze not going off is unlikely to be encountered at all.

This unfortunately isn't my experience they seem equally faulty in both SP and MP not that you guys can do anything about it.  ED has to fix this.

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, nighthawk2174 said:

This unfortunately isn't my experience they seem equally faulty in both SP and MP not that you guys can do anything about it.  ED has to fix this.

You need to provide tracks and a proper bug report. MP proximity fuses can be heavily affected my network related issues. 

[nighthawk2174]

43 minutes ago, NineLine said:

You need to provide tracks and a proper bug report. MP proximity fuses can be heavily affected my network related issues. 

I've done so in the past and so have others in past threads its just not worth the time.  I'm just going to wait for you guys to fix it.  I just hope it won't take years.

[NineLine]

34 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

I've done so in the past and so have others in past threads its just not worth the time.  I'm just going to wait for you guys to fix it.  I just hope it won't take years.

Well you claim it doesn't work in SP, I haven't heard that one, I do know there are issues with MP because of the network, even the best connections have differences. We have talked about this before, but I will ask to have this added to the new white paper being worked up. 

[nighthawk2174]

24 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Well you claim it doesn't work in SP, I haven't heard that one, I do know there are issues with MP because of the network, even the best connections have differences. We have talked about this before, but I will ask to have this added to the new white paper being worked up. 

I don't have tracks of any of these as I often delete them due to them taking up my limited SDD space but I'm sure you could find tracks/get some quickly:

Spoiler

 

Just a few dedicated threads but its been disscused in a lot of different threads from the latest AMRAAM bug threads back to the original IASTAG CFD thread.

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by nighthawk2174

[NineLine]

I tried the track from the last one internally and results were dead aircraft.

The AIM-54 thread was from a MP issue. The fellow that started it was is a tester now I will have him recheck. 

But if you read the whole thread:

Quote

Yesterday I've hosted my first dedicated server and all went smooth. Nobody on the server was able to reproduce the thing I described in the OP. From now on, I'll keep using a dedicated server. Of course, if I ever see again 4 unexploded AIM-54 in a row, I'll get back here to talk about it.

 

[nighthawk2174]

13 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I tried the track from the last one internally and results were dead aircraft.

The AIM-54 thread was from a MP issue. The fellow that started it was is a tester now I will have him recheck. 

But if you read the whole thread:

 

Well maybe something has been improved internally but we'll have to see the results the next patch.   But as of the current patch i'm still seeing missiles in SP pass within fuzing range and not detonate.

[Hobel]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb nighthawk2174:

Well maybe something has been improved internally but we'll have to see the results the next patch.   But as of the current patch i'm still seeing missiles in SP pass within fuzing range and not detonate.

but it could also be that the trackfile is broken.
Which would not be surprising

 

Perhaps it should first be clarified which proxi ranges ED is aiming for.  Aim120 Aim54 Aim9  and so on

because an Aim9 that flies 3 meters past an aircraft is simply not right.

[DSplayer]

On 5/30/2022 at 4:39 PM, IronMike said:

yeah, like GG mentions above, the proximity fuze is set to 15 meters in the aim54, with the 286 feet I simply meant it was far, far away from proximity fuze parameters. Additionally, the proximity fuze not going off is as we think confined to MP only and affects all missiles alike. In SP proximity fuze not going off is unlikely to be encountered at all.

Can I get like an official document source for that? I need to yell at someone about the proximity fuse on the AIM-54 and how it should be around 15 meters.