SA11 Tactics

[Jetliner]

Hey all!  Been playing Liberation and using it to really learn everything there is to know about the planes I like but its finally time to disable my first SA11 site.  After a bit of research I found that each launcher is also a track radar and therefore the entire site needs to be leveled to eliminate the threat.  Now, I could obviously just lob 4 HAARMS at a time in there and clear it all up but its just not realistic and I'd rather avoid doing it that way - so I was curious what the strategy is with 1 command vehicle, a snow drift, and 4 launchers?  I tried a JSOW but, dropped in pairs they didnt seem to have any effect somehow and the only other things I can think of are sadly, lobbing HAARMS, or trying to trust the AI to SEAD which... ha ha... unless I want to buy all those aircraft back next turn.  

 

I'm open to suggestions.

[Lace]

Lead a flight of four with ECM and 2xAGM-88.  Engage all emitters (the AI do ok here as long as they are properly equipped) at range, transition to TARCAP role.  Second flight of two with 2xCBU mix to clean up.

Could reduce the first flight to two if you don't have the numbers but the trade-off is that you have less chance of getting all the emitters (some HARMS will be intercepted).

That would be my approach, YMMV.

[av8orDave]

Just flew a successful Liberation mission against an SA-11 site after a few unsuccessful tries. When I finally got it right, I used 4 CBU-97s, flew nap of the earth all the way in until just near the site, popped up, and dropped a pair of the 97s. I then circled back around and cleaned up the stragglers with the remaining pair of 97s. I found that HARMs were useless because the SA-11 doesn't go active until you're right on top of it, and each SA-11 is essentially its own radar site.

[Spurts]

The above is largely how I pop SA-10s too, but once I throw an SA-19 is as a defender of the SA-10 that doesn't work anymore.

[Jetliner]

I’ll try that. I do know there is a decent AAA battery in the area as well and an SA13 helping guard some of the immediate area so it may just have to boil down to sniping with HAARMs however unrealistic that may be. 

[Hobel]

Try Mavericks otherwise? you can fire it on Max on 20nm.

[Jetliner]

10 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

Just flew a successful Liberation mission against an SA-11 site after a few unsuccessful tries. When I finally got it right, I used 4 CBU-97s, flew nap of the earth all the way in until just near the site, popped up, and dropped a pair of the 97s. I then circled back around and cleaned up the stragglers with the remaining pair of 97s. I found that HARMs were useless because the SA-11 doesn't go active until you're right on top of it, and each SA-11 is essentially its own radar site.

Okay I lied. There is an SA6, SA13, and a AAA battery guarding it. Lol

 

How high did you have to do your pop up?  With a BA of 1500 that I don’t think I can change I have to pop up over that, drop them, then dive back down to safety and GTFO pretty quick. I’m starting to think there just isn’t a way to handle a layered defense like this without HAARMing or sacrificing crappy AI to a SEAD mission.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Jetliner

[av8orDave]

Try using CBU-105s in preplanned mode. Drop on one steerpoint, cycle to the next, drop again, and so on. If you fly at high speed and pop up they have quite the range.

[TheBigTatanka]

I'd say SA-11 is the most challenging takedown you want to do in the Viper. SA-10 should be left for cruise missiles and stealth aircraft..... So.... I think you need to think about what weapons to allocate to each BUK. I would ignore the search radars, and only allocate weapons to the launchers.

Taking down an SA-11 is a big deal. If it has 4 launchers, i would want 2 HARMs per launcher (so a 4 ship of vipers), and additional jets with JDAMs or CBU-105s on them (maybe a 2-4 ship).

If you don't know where the site is, you have to generate coordinates with the HTS and then fine tune them in the TGP. The radar isn't good enough to generate targetable coordinates, so you can only attack a mobile/unlocated SA-11 if the weather is good (maybe eventually the Razbam F-15E will be able to take the bullseye cut from our HTS and do a SAR map of the are and generate targetable coordinates for us).

Once you all have the coordinates in your system -- I'd have your bomb jets turn in, turn on their ECM, and charge the target trying to get to a LAR (25k+ and fast). As they turn in, have some of your SEAD jets lob HARMs at the site, and space them to impact every 20 seconds or so. If any 11 turns on a radar, they die. The bombers drive in and drop as soon as they are in range, then abort back out.

Pro gamer move -- have a tractor come and haul away whatever's left at the site.

This kind of attack needs to be done with your buddies, AI probably can't do it. Co-op Liberation is a lot of fun. Remember, SA-11 takedown is a big deal. It's going to be well planned.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Jetliner]

Thank you, Tatanka I was starting to think I was just kind of a dumb pilot being stumped by some 1980s Soviet tech but it sounds like I really do have a challenge here. 
 

I would LOVE nothing more than coop Liberation but I have no DCS friends (or at least none that would be proficient enough for a mission like this)

 

As David said, I’m going to try to loft 105s this time. I will say my recent attempt to HAARM the Snow Drift to cut the range, and then NOE my way to the launchers and lob a pair of CBU97 into the mix proved a possibly worthy strategy minus the lack of accuracy. I got the command post but all other bomblets were long which is fair given the “dumb” nature of that bomb. 
 

I’ll try my strategy one more time with the 105 and if that doesn’t work I’ll start sacrificing AI. 

[SCPanda]

I don't get why SA11 is considered hard... SA11 literally cannot intercept the HARMs you fired it. Just HARM that son of bitch. 

[TheBigTatanka]

Jetliner -- if you're going in single ship, you can try to take a HARM on one pylon, and a CBU-105 on the other. Shoot the HARM as you cross the missile engagement zone. Shoot it in POS EOM mode, and then switch over to the CBU-105 PRE mode and go do your pop-up attack. You could also try to shoot that HARM right before you pop up, so it's there to protect your egress. It's not really standard -- but it's a way you could get away with this as a single ship.

I'm in upgrade training at my airline right now, but I've got all of April off. Feel free to send me a forum message and we can go fly a liberation mission together, if you like. We can fine-tune our SA-11 takedown. There's some abort/attack tactics we can do as a 2 ship.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Jetliner]

45 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

I don't get why SA11 is considered hard... SA11 literally cannot intercept the HARMs you fired it. Just HARM that son of bitch. 

In the “it’s just a game” world you’re absolutely right but I personally like to at least try to adopt some real world tactics just for fun. Given that’s not at all how HAARMS are used or even effective that way in the real world, it seems immersion breaking to snipe SAM sites in game that way. 
 

17 minutes ago, TheBigTatanka said:

Jetliner -- if you're going in single ship, you can try to take a HARM on one pylon, and a CBU-105 on the other. Shoot the HARM as you cross the missile engagement zone. Shoot it in POS EOM mode, and then switch over to the CBU-105 PRE mode and go do your pop-up attack. You could also try to shoot that HARM right before you pop up, so it's there to protect your egress. It's not really standard -- but it's a way you could get away with this as a single ship.

I'm in upgrade training at my airline right now, but I've got all of April off. Feel free to send me a forum message and we can go fly a liberation mission together, if you like. We can fine-tune our SA-11 takedown. There's some abort/attack tactics we can do as a 2 ship.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

Yup, you outlined exactly what my next attempt will be. Glad it doesn’t sound too crazy. However what would an airline pilot know about evading/destroying SAMS? Hehe I kid I kid I’d be honored to have someone hold my hand and probably teach me a ton so long as I didn’t feel like I was taking up their time so if you’re offering I’ll take it!!

Edited March 7, 2022 by Jetliner

[Harker]

I don't get why SA11 is considered hard... SA11 literally cannot intercept the HARMs you fired it. Just HARM that son of bitch. 

None of the SAMs in DCS are really dangerous if they're deployed unrealistically. That SA-11 would be surrounded by SHORAD, such as SA-15s and SA-19s (and a bunch of AAA), which can and will take out at least some HARMs, even if they approach in a top-down trajectory.

[Spurts]

5 hours ago, Harker said:

16 hours ago, SCPanda said:

I don't get why SA11 is considered hard... SA11 literally cannot intercept the HARMs you fired it. Just HARM that son of bitch. 

None of the SAMs in DCS are really dangerous if they're deployed unrealistically. That SA-11 would be surrounded by SHORAD, such as SA-15s and SA-19s (and a bunch of AAA), which can and will take out at least some HARMs, even if they approach in a top-down trajectory.

Which is why I had to start adding SA-19 to my SA-10 sites.  By itself it was too easy to do a low level ingress and even dumb bomb the snot out of the SA-10 (as I have done with the F-14 and AV-8B in the past)

[Jetliner]

7 hours ago, Harker said:

19 hours ago, SCPanda said:

None of the SAMs in DCS are really dangerous if they're deployed unrealistically. That SA-11 would be surrounded by SHORAD, such as SA-15s and SA-19s (and a bunch of AAA), which can and will take out at least some HARMs, even if they approach in a top-down trajectory.

Which is exactly how the site I was trying to attack was laid out, plus the launchers being well spaced to avoid CBU attacks. “Was” being the operative word as I was able to cripple it last night finally.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Jetliner

[av8orDave]

14 hours ago, Jetliner said:

Which is exactly how the site I was trying to attack was laid out, plus the launchers being well spaced to avoid CBU attacks. “Was” being the operative word as I was able to cripple it last night finally.

 

Well, how did you finally get it done?

[Sarge55]

Yes, do tell. Don’t be coy…

[Sl1ck]

HTS to find the site roughly, or if position known use POS EOM or PB and toss in a harm or two. If youre fighting from a distance its going to take many harms.

Otherwise Zero in on the site with your TGP. Then fly in low level and toss in a couple CBU105's. That usually does the trick.

As for the launchers, they do indeed have their own Track radars but must be facing the right way to pick you up by themselves if the Snowdrift has been taken down.

[Jetliner]

On 3/8/2022 at 4:08 AM, davidrbarnette said:

Well, how did you finally get it done?

Haha, I lobbed a HAARM to take the Snow Drift offline since they are always active (not sure if thats realistic sadly) then diving down to the dirt and then 20 seconds to the steerpoint I began a very shallow climb while holding the pickle button on the 105s.  I used the F10 map to roughly calculate their site diameter using the drone overhead to eliminate the fog of war and set my bombs to drop side by side with the proper spacing to get enough coverage to take them all out (or at least I thought so but it seems 3 launchers (out of 2 SA11 sites) survived) - so I'll have to mop those up but the Snow Drift is down meaning their range is a non factor for the most part if I come in via terrain or lower than a snakes belly.

 

Its these mini mission problems that make me respect those Wild Weasels so much more... Viper Pilot was a great book but this just gives it so much more perspective as well.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Jetliner

[ruddy122]

SA-11 reminds me of a cockroach that won’t die

The reason I say that is that each launcher has its own TTR Fire Dome

Just because you killed Snow Drift doesn’t mean SA-11 is dead it could still fire


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike5560]

Either:

1. Have enough HARMS (~2 per TEL) to engage, and do not engage the Snow Drift radar.  If you do, you'll likely be allowed to get closer to the site, but the track radars on the TELs will target you at random distances, which makes them difficult to target with HARMS.

2. Have other weapons in addition to HARM.  Use HARM on the Snow Drift first to take out its SA, then move in terrain masked to engage with CBU / bombs OR fly at 30k fast as possible, take a gamble with GBU-38s. Should be able to release around 16nm range. 

[Floydii]

Ideally use a combination of HTS and TPOD to pinpoint the SR and TELARs as Mark points.  Destroy the Snow Drift search radar (HARM or preferably JSOW) then use the TELAR markpoints for fast high alt run-ins starting from outside missile range. You want to focus on minimising time in the SA11 range as I'm pretty sure the TELARs are limited to visual search / radar track without the SnowDrift so you use that to buy time in the dangerzone.

[USA_Recon]

On 3/6/2022 at 9:34 PM, SCPanda said:

I don't get why SA11 is considered hard... SA11 literally cannot intercept the HARMs you fired it. Just HARM that son of bitch. 

Because it tends to be supported by other defenses 

[Whiskey11]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:17 PM, Spurts said:

Which is why I had to start adding SA-19 to my SA-10 sites.  By itself it was too easy to do a low level ingress and even dumb bomb the snot out of the SA-10 (as I have done with the F-14 and AV-8B in the past)

If your goal is realism, adding a Russian Army unit (SA-19) to a Russian Air Defense unit (S-300PS/SA-10B) is highly unrealistic.  I have never seen a point defense unit parked at an S-300/S-400 battery in real life.  Pantsir is allegedly deployed with S-400 batteries... I say allegedly, because once again, I have yet to see one deployed in such a manner... for sure Army units (any point defense unit which isn't Pantsir) would be unrealistic.

 

Of course, none of that matters if you are doing it for fun!

 

11 hours ago, USA_Recon said:

Because it tends to be supported by other defenses 

Depending on realism choices, the SA-11 may not actually be supported by other defense units.  Part of the reason for the development for the advanced Buk variants being able to engage incoming weapons is because they aren't always supported... IRL, in the current conflict, we've seen a lot of videos of Buk's operating entirely independent of other AD assets.

 

The primary thing which makes the Buk dangerous is that it is a tactical SAM which can rapidly pack up and move.  Such capability is NOT possible in DCS by default and must be done using third party scripting.  There is a branch of Skynet (baron branch) which includes the ability for tactical SAM's like the SA-6 and SA-11 (among all the others) to move after emitting or shooting.  It adds an extra layer and puts the teeth in tactical SAM sites.