Force Trim

[BIGNEWY]

working fine for me, if you have a track replay showing a issue please post it in the bug section

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

15 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

Has anything been changed/updated in the SCAS roll channel in the past few months? Just asking as like I said earlier, I really don't remember the Apache being so unstable in the roll axis during my first month of flying her. So when I came back to her a few weeks ago, I was surprised at how much she would rock in roll after no longer commanding any and just going straight.
By comparison the Mi24 feels rock solid in roll, and quickly stabilizes after any roll commands.
Is the RL Apache SCAS really that much worse than the Mi24's ?

Not a pilot just user impression/feedback - Yeah I find the Apache top heavy and so it tends to ‘capsize’ like a boat. Pendular motion (when it happens) seems excessive like it has too much energy and needs some damping. The SCAS does some odd things to fight you at times. Fly it safe and level it’s ok. Do more demanding stuff and it sometimes rolls 360. OGE hover from enroute speed can sometimes be all over the place and I can’t understand what the SCAS is trying to do. So I use FTR fwd hold down to 'tame' it. Not so with the Huey, that’s my only other helo comparison. So basically in the sim world, I find for now, the Huey more stable and 'logical' in flight controls compared to the Apache. Can’t imagine if that’s the case IRL. Also, most Apache vid tutorials demo safe level flying and hover from ground with ATT hold, and show that it's all working nicely. Would be nice to see tutorials that are a little more in-depth in testing the system 'cos I think that's where some of us run into issues and have these questions.   

Edited June 3, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Hummingbird]

15 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Not a pilot just user impression/feedback - Yeah I find the Apache top heavy and so it tends to ‘capsize’ like a boat. Pendular motion (when it happens) seems excessive like it has too much energy and needs some damping. The SCAS does some odd things to fight you at times. Fly it safe and level it’s ok. Do more demanding stuff and it sometimes rolls 360. OGE hover from enroute speed can sometimes be all over the place and I can’t understand what the SCAS is trying to do. So I use FTR fwd hold down to 'tame' it. Not so with the Huey, that’s my only other helo comparison. So basically in the sim world, I find for now, the Huey more stable and 'logical' in flight controls compared to the Apache. Can’t imagine if that’s the case IRL. Also, most Apache vid tutorials demo safe level flying and hover from ground with ATT hold, and show that it's all working nicely. Would be nice to see tutorials that are a little more in-depth in testing the system 'cos I think that's where some of us run into issues and have these questions.   

 

 

Yeah this is exactly what I'm feeling too, that rocking pendular motion in roll as you try to level out.

Feels very strange that the Apache should be doing that considering the advanced SCAS it's supposed to have. If realistic, it's certainly not a very impressive system compared to what's in the Hind, which is way more stable.

[BIGNEWY]

if you are using central position trimmer mode we do have some tweaks coming in a future update. 

thanks

[Hummingbird]

42 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

if you are using central position trimmer mode we do have some tweaks coming in a future update. 

thanks

 

I am, so that sounds good  Hopefully that solves the issue, as I can't really fly her atm due to that odd instability in roll.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Hummingbird

[Floyd1212]

It sounds like the tweaks are related to the way the trimmer allows you to return your stick to neutral, not to the flight model with the instability in the roll axis.

[Scaley]

3 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

I am, so that sounds good  Hopefully that solves the issue, as I can't really fly her atm due to that odd instability in roll.

 

It might be worth you posting a video (ideally with the control indicator showing) of this. I haven't seen any problems in levelling out from steep turns either myself or when training other people (I had about 10 different people in the back seat so far for training). 
Let us know a bit more detail and maybe someone can help.

[Hummingbird]

19 hours ago, Scaley said:

It might be worth you posting a video (ideally with the control indicator showing) of this. I haven't seen any problems in levelling out from steep turns either myself or when training other people (I had about 10 different people in the back seat so far for training). 
Let us know a bit more detail and maybe someone can help.

I'll record some footage later today and post it here. It's a super annoying issue for me when flying the Apache.

[BIGNEWY]

17 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

I'll record some footage later today and post it here. It's a super annoying issue for me when flying the Apache.

My guess is, if you are using central position trimmer mode as you suggest you are not centering your stick quick enough after trimming. 

[Hummingbird]

10 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

My guess is, if you are using central position trimmer mode as you suggest you are not centering your stick quick enough after trimming. 

 

But why is it not an issue in the Hind then? Also I feel like I'm centering it quite quick, but also I believe I am using the setting where no inputs are registered post trim until I center the stick, so should that even be an issue?

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

 

But why is it not an issue in the Hind then? Also I feel like I'm centering it quite quick, but also I believe I am using the setting where no inputs are registered post trim until I center the stick, so should that even be an issue?

I dont know why you are experiencing the issue more than others, but the coming tweak should help. 

Like I said before I am also using it and not having a problem. It maybe subtle technique at play here, either way wait for the next patch and test again. 

thanks

[Marshallman]

What am I missing please George is constantly slaving/deslaving even after being fired on from the targets??

[Hummingbird]

Ok, here's a video of me doing a few circles round Mozdok AF:

 

Now it may not look like much as I'm doing my best to keep the chopper stable, but as you'll notice it subtly but constantly wants to swing a little from left to right (like a pendulum), even when I'm not touching the pedals at all, and only using the cyclic. Having to constantly adjust in the roll axis as the chopper does this is very tiring, esp. as I just can't seem to get it perfectly stable after a turn, or just in general going straight, nomatter how hard I try. The Apache always seems to want to roll abit from side to side for me. By comparison the Hind is just easy, and gets stable real fast.

I also feel like the Hind stabilizes much better in heading after a turn, i.e. it seems to stabilize more in the direction I want to go than the Apache, which after centering the pedals always seems to wanna slide more in an unwanted direction. In general the stability system in the Hind just feels way better, which is a surprise to me considering how supposedly advanced the Apache is supposed to be.

Now I don't know if the SCAS is finished yet, so this could very well all be ironed out in later patches, but it's just how it feels to me now.

 

PS: I had wind set to zero on the mission, so that isn't a factor.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Hummingbird

[Hammer1-1]

4 hours ago, Marshallman said:

What am I missing please George is constantly slaving/deslaving even after being fired on from the targets??

nothing to do with this thread. try here.

 

[dburne]

I equate trimming the Apache for level flight about the same as trying to balance the chopper on a bowling ball lol.

[BIGNEWY]

20 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

Ok, here's a video of me doing a few circles round Mozdok AF:

 

Now it may not look like much as I'm doing my best to keep the chopper stable, but as you'll notice it subtly but constantly wants to swing a little from left to right (like a pendulum), even when I'm not touching the pedals at all, and only using the cyclic. Having to constantly adjust in the roll axis as the chopper does this is very tiring, esp. as I just can't seem to get it perfectly stable after a turn, or just in general going straight, nomatter how hard I try. The Apache always seems to want to roll abit from side to side for me. By comparison the Hind is just easy, and gets stable real fast.

I also feel like the Hind stabilizes much better in heading after a turn, i.e. it seems to stabilize more in the direction I want to go than the Apache, which after centering the pedals always seems to wanna slide more in an unwanted direction. In general the stability system in the Hind just feels way better, which is a surprise to me considering how supposedly advanced the Apache is supposed to be.

Now I don't know if the SCAS is finished yet, so this could very well all be ironed out in later patches, but it's just how it feels to me now.

 

PS: I had wind set to zero on the mission, so that isn't a factor.

 

Thank you again for your feedback and feelings. As mentioned wait for the next patch and try again see if you notice a difference. If not I dont know what to suggest to you. 

thanks

[Hummingbird]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Thank you again for your feedback and feelings. As mentioned wait for the next patch and try again see if you notice a difference. If not I dont know what to suggest to you. 

thanks

 

Just to be clear what to pay attention to in the video, it's when going straight and level, where I'm barely or not at all touching the pedals. I just can't seem to properly stabilize the chopper, it keeps wanting to subtly bob from side to side. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Hummingbird

[BIGNEWY]

25 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Just to be clear what to pay attention to in the video, it's when going straight and level, where I'm barely or not at all touching the pedals. I just can't seem to properly stabilize the chopper, it keeps wanting to subtly bob from side to side. 

 

Personal opinion, I don't think it is an issue. 

[Hummingbird]

Ok, well in that case I guess the Hind just is the more stable chopper, or atleast has a better stabilization system, as I'm clearly not alone with this opinion.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Hummingbird

[BIGNEWY]

As suggested already, wait for the patch. 

thanks

[Hummingbird]

I will, and I hope it will solve it, but I mean if that's how it flies then that's how it flies. Realism should always trump desires, I'm just surprised is all. Hence not a dig at the module, just sharing some feedback.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Hummingbird

[Floyd1212]

One thing to keep in mind is that in the video you are cruising at 120+ knots.  From what I understand, normal cruise speed on the Apache is closer to 80 knots.

You ever notice that your car is fairly stable when you cruise on the highway at 80mph, but when you cruise at 120mph, it gets a little unstable? Just saying.

 

[realtrance]

Relieved to see I’m not the only one struggling with this.
I can easily see how a TM Warthog setup would be good here; you need a stick festooned with buttons, to map both all the trim options, and then the Cursor Controller on the MFD. Among many other things.
I just don’t have the strength nor desk set up for same, as I use my PC for multiple things.
I really like the way the 64 simulates your having to “dance on top a basketball” for control, that’s how real helis feel. Sure, I suspect the 64 is more stable in RL than in the sim, but still.
Anyways, I will look forward with great relief to a patch that makes how to set force trim easier for some of us with our more casual joysticks. I’m tired of breaking my wooden rotor blades when trying to hover!
I do enjoy the challenge. The FW-190 was an absolute beast to taxi and take off in at first, but I eventually got the hang of it. Same is happening here. My trick is to be really sensitive with the collective, and slow, and to assess What’s happening with the feel of the 64D as it goes into hover. The slightest extra push in cyclic or rudder pedals has me rocketing off sideways, crashing down and destroying an engine and the rotors.
I can’t imagine the real AH64D would be so destructible during learning. In fact I know it to be so, being friends with a former AH-64D pilot years ago!
Good luck ED with the next patch; huge progress occurs across the board with each one.
 

[deloy]

Although I cant say for Apache (I have real world experience in some other military helicopters), I do feel that SCAS needs some fine tuning specially in high speed ranges, it tends to be somewhat unstable in roll.

[Dallas88B]

Do contributors to this thread find the patch DCS 2.7.15.26783 Open Beta - 22.06.2022 improved SCAS behavior? and is the Central Position Trimmer Mode workable now? DCS 2.7.15.25026 Open Beta - 08.06.2022

Is hovering as manageable as it should be? Just trying to figure out if the challenge to keep the Apache stable especially at hover is just me.