Cold War Naval assets

[Repth]

With the recent announcement of the Kola Peninsula map made, It would be nice to see some cold war naval assets added to the game from both NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Especially the respective submarine fleets that operated in the area. The Kilo and Type 93 just won't cut it for Naval warfare here.    

[bies]

It would be awesome and super atmospheric. US carriers with A-6E, A-7E, F-4J, F-14A and Soviet interceptors like MiG-21bis, MiG-23MLA, MiG-29A, Su-17M, Su-25A fighting over Kola peninsula. Or earlier with F-8J, F-4B and MiG-17/19/21.

Soviet Northern Fleet assets would be great.

[upyr1]

 

1 hour ago, Repth said:

With the recent announcement of the Kola Peninsula map made, It would be nice to see some cold war naval assets added to the game from both NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Especially the respective submarine fleets that operated in the area. The Kilo and Type 93 just won't cut it for Naval warfare here.    

If you dropped the words "With the recent announcement of the Kola Peninsula map made" and cold war,  this  would still hold true. The Naval enviroment is drastically under developed. The Normandy/ Channel maps need the D-day invasion fleet. The up coming World War II Marianas need the Fast Carrier Task Force. Then the F-14 and up coming A-7, A-6 we need some 1980s era assets- Kid class destroyers, california class cruisers, and of course the 1980s Iowas. 

[Northstar98]

+9999999

 

The overwhelming majority of Cold War assets are REDFOR and just about all of them are in dire need of a major graphical overhaul (and probably have done so for at least a decade).

I think at the very least we need some BLUFOR escorts, namely the Knox FF, Spruance DD and Belknap CG, centered around the mid 80s. For REDFOR, the Sovremenny and Udaloy DDGs are pretty glaring omissions.

It would also be great if we could CV 66 USS America, which I think is the most appropriate aircraft carrier for the region and timeframe - though if we got an initial fit of the Theodore Roosevelt (which would be relatively easy, some minor changes to the 3D model).

Spoiler

• AN/SPN-43C -> AN/SPN-43B (fairly sure they have the same model and the radar is non-functional anyway).
• Delete AN/SPQ-9B
• Add Mk 23 TAS
• AN/SPS-48E (NTU) -> AN/SPS-48C (model already looks more like a C than an E, just need to colour it black).
• AN/WLR-1H(V)7 -> AN/WLR-1H(V)3 - 3D model is identical AFAIK.
• AN/SLQ-32(V)4 -> AN/SLQ-17.
• Replace the aft-starboard Mk 49 GMLS (RIM-116) with Mk 29 GMLS for RIM-7M.
• Replace the forward-port Mk 49 GMLS with Mk 15 Phalanx Block 0.
• Replace existing Mk 15 Phalanx Block 1B with Mk 15 Phalanx Block 0.
• Add Mk 15 Phalanx Block 0 to a sponson on the aft-starboard side (opposite the port one).
• Delete LRLS
• I assume replace the LSO station with its mid 80s equivalent.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Northstar98

[WinterH]

One may hope that with the arrival of a Kola Peninsula map, we'll get more Cold War naval assets indeed. Also who knows... with sea floor being modeled for some years now, and with submarines now being able to dive and release torpedoes... is it too wild to dream of anti submarine warfare helicopter ops at some point, with an appropriate helo?

[Northstar98]

As much as I'd like to see it, the naval environment is lacking in just about every aspect imaginable, apart from maybe graphics in a select few examples. Even addressing some of the big ticket items such as the AI, the damage modelling, the sensor modelling and the weapons/fire-control modelling would almost be an entire game's worth on its own.

ASW would suffer the same + adding a few of its own, seeing as ASW is a wholly absent concept in DCS, beyond attacking unreactive, surfaced submarines. While the theory is all pretty much out there, it will have to be fairly heavily abstracted, owing to classification.

Though yes, we do have semi-accurate bathymetry on most maps - it's not perfect but it's pretty workable. Not only that, there's an actual 'underwater' present (though very basic) even better, with some small editing of the Server.lua inside Config\View, you can take the camera below too (simply change CameraTerrainRestriction = true to false).

[upyr1]

9 hours ago, WinterH said:

One may hope that with the arrival of a Kola Peninsula map, we'll get more Cold War naval assets indeed. Also who knows... with sea floor being modeled for some years now, and with submarines now being able to dive and release torpedoes... is it too wild to dream of anti submarine warfare helicopter ops at some point, with an appropriate helo?

An anti-submarine aircraft would all depend on what information is publicly available I'd love to see playable destroyers and submarines. Any naval modules would need to be accompanied by a massive overhaul which includes new models for existing assets, new damage models as well as new assets. 

[upyr1]

9 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

As much as I'd like to see it, the naval environment is lacking in just about every aspect imaginable, apart from maybe graphics in a select few examples. Even addressing some of the big ticket items such as the AI, the damage modelling, the sensor modelling and the weapons/fire-control modelling would almost be an entire game's worth on its own.

ASW would suffer the same + adding a few of its own, seeing as ASW is a wholly absent concept in DCS, beyond attacking unreactive, surfaced submarines. While the theory is all pretty much out there, it will have to be fairly heavily abstracted, owing to classification.

Though yes, we do have semi-accurate bathymetry on most maps - it's not perfect but it's pretty workable. Not only that, there's an actual 'underwater' present (though very basic) even better, with some small editing of the Server.lua inside Config\View, you can take the camera below too (simply change CameraTerrainRestriction = true to false).

I think you are right that it would take a lot of work, which is the reason that I keep asking for the Naval modules. 

[rkk01]

Don’t forget that we have got / are getting a fairly good set of Cold War RN assets, which would be perfect for this map…

Will be interesting to see if DCS / ORBX take on the challenge of the underwater environment.  Classification will always be difficult, but as a minimum we would need to see some Soviet missile boats, as well a Los Angeles and a UK Valiant or S Class

Of course, the S Atlantic subs could also find a home…

[bies]

3 hours ago, upyr1 said:

An anti-submarine aircraft would all depend on what information is publicly available I'd love to see playable destroyers and submarines. Any naval modules would need to be accompanied by a massive overhaul which includes new models for existing assets, new damage models as well as new assets. 

1980s ASW is simulated very well and reasonably in-depth in Sonalyst's Dangerous Waters with controlable P-3 Orion, MH-60 Seahawk, 688i, Oliver Hazard Perry, Akula, Kilo. With sound propagation, sound bouys, different types of sea floor, sound layers, passive and active sonars, magnetic anomaly detectors, FLIR cameras, different types of passive and active guided torpedoes, mines etc.

"The hunt for Red October" in cold waters north of Kola Peninsula would be great in DCS, but to be close to Dangerous Waters level of fidelity and to be attractive and reasonably realistic it would require dedicated specialised 3rd party to join and make it.

Edited July 30, 2022 by bies

[Northstar98]

All of the concepts and theory of ASW is out there, what's classified are more the capabilities and properties of specific systems, though this stuff can be abstracted/guestimated and still yield perfectly adequate results.

The main difficulty is probably a hydroacoustic model - nothing of the sort exists in DCS. Especially when you consider underwater sound propagation, thermoclines, surface ducts and covergence zones. We'd also need realistic sounds for naval units as right now they all sound the same save for a couple of exceptions.

Getting an example of how stuff is actually presented? Such that we can make a full-fidelity ASW aircraft? That's going to be very difficult to impossible, save for the absolute basics - though again, we could try abstracting and guestimating it - IMO it would be perfectly sufficient.

That said though we do have stuff like this, Dangerous Waters also has a pretty fantastic sonar simulation.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Northstar98

[upyr1]

7 hours ago, bies said:

1980s ASW is simulated very well and reasonably in-depth in Sonalyst's Dangerous Waters with controlable P-3 Orion, MH-60 Seahawk, 688i, Oliver Hazard Perry, Akula, Kilo. With sound propagation, sound bouys, different types of sea floor, sound layers, passive and active sonars, magnetic anomaly detectors, FLIR cameras, different types of passive and active guided torpedoes, mines etc.

"The hunt for Red October" in cold waters north of Kola Peninsula would be great in DCS, but to be close to Dangerous Waters level of fidelity and to be attractive and reasonably realistic it would require dedicated specialised 3rd party to join and make it.

 

A lot of people have brought up Dangerous Waters the next question though, is if that model provides enough abstraction for redfor ships. I'd love to see Eagle develop the Super carrier mod into a carrier command module. 

[bies]

4 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

A lot of people have brought up Dangerous Waters the next question though, is if that model provides enough abstraction for redfor ships. I'd love to see Eagle develop the Super carrier mod into a carrier command module. 

Dangerous Waters simulated controlable 1980s Soviet Submarines as well, different diesel/electric Kilo class variants (Project 877) and nuclear propulsion Akula class (Project 971).

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

A lot of people have brought up Dangerous Waters the next question though, is if that model provides enough abstraction for redfor ships. I'd love to see Eagle develop the Super carrier mod into a carrier command module. 

"Combined Waters"? Like Janes "Fleet Command" or similar? Yeah, that would be cool.

Cheers!

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, bies said:

Dangerous Waters simulated controlable 1980s Soviet Submarines as well, different diesel/electric Kilo class variants (Project 877) and nuclear propulsion Akula class (Project 971).

Maybe it is a good model to use then.

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

"Combined Waters"? Like Janes "Fleet Command" or similar? Yeah, that would be cool.

Cheers!

I have suggested Fleet Ops. 

[Silver_Dragon]

Missing some steeps here:

- No pilotable comand posts on DCS on naval environment (no CAG/Landing officer post code available by hardcode).
- No pilotable submarines on DCS, only a "fake" vehicle view as CA.
- No capability to build packages or launch / recovery aircrafts / Base Manage on CA.
- Mising data about sea / underwater sensors and weapons on DCS World.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Silver_Dragon

[bies]

32 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Missing some steeps here:

- No pilotable comand posts on DCS on naval environment (no CAG/Landing officer post code available by hardcode).
- No pilotbable submarines on DCS, only a "fake" view as CA.
- No capability to build packages or launch / recovery aircrafts / Base Manage on CA.
- Mising data about sea / underwater sensors and weapons on DCS World.

Yes, as i said right now ASW is impossible in DCS, dedicated specialized 3rd party would need to join and code ASW environment.

[Silver_Dragon]

20 minutes ago, bies said:

Yes, as i said right now ASW is impossible in DCS, dedicated specialized 3rd party would need to join and code ASW environment.

If ED dont implement them first in the core, has impossible. The same situations with Vehicle and Ships Cockpits and Systems or build a FPS on DCS.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Silver_Dragon

[rkk01]

1 minute ago, bies said:

Yes, as i said right now ASW is impossible in DCS, dedicated specialized 3rd party would need to join and code ASW environment.

Not necessarily a big deal for the other maps…

but Kola inlet / Barents Sea without underwater cat and mouse would be missing the most important component. Even if sub v sub wasn’t doable (or lacked visual / game appeal) then any surface fleet action would absolutely need to include ASW element 

We are supposed to be getting an Oberon from Razbam - I’m not sure that anyone knows what the capabilities of these boats were, even 20-30 years on from decommissioning. The stories that seeped out during the 80s were / are either urban legend, almost entirely remain highly classified, or perhaps were in part allowed, if only to veil what the SSNs were capable of….?  Either way, there’s more published material on the earlier RN SSNs Ops than there appears to be on the SSKs

 

[Northstar98]

15 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

"Combined Waters"? Like Janes "Fleet Command" or similar? Yeah, that would be cool.

Cheers!

Yeah, it would - though it’s a gigantic undertaking - it essentially boils down to having Sea Power: Naval Combat in the Missile Age for DCS.

[Repth]

I'd be more than happy with a decent base of AI assets for now, even with the limited capabilities that they have. If someone wanted to take on the underwater environment later on then that we be amazing too.

[upyr1]

8 hours ago, Repth said:

I'd be more than happy with a decent base of AI assets for now, even with the limited capabilities that they have. If someone wanted to take on the underwater environment later on then that we be amazing too.

While quality would be nice quality is good too.

[TacitBlue]

We'll need a Typhoon-class SSBN asset. Maybe one with some symmetrical doors on the aft end of the hull.

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, TacitBlue said:

We'll need a Typhoon-class SSBN asset. Maybe one with some symmetrical doors on the aft end of the hull.

The next question with the Typhoon or any SSBN is should there be nuclear warheads for the missiles? Considering their range that might not be that big of an issue as the mission success goals could be if sub reaches waypoint X it will launch 

[Northstar98]

On 8/6/2022 at 3:41 AM, TacitBlue said:

We'll need a Typhoon-class SSBN asset. Maybe one with some symmetrical doors on the aft end of the hull.

Meh, I'd much rather go for SSN/SSGN assets as they much better fit DCS as it is.

Things like the Los Angeles-class Flt. I, Trafalgar, Victor III, Akula I, Charlie II and Oscar I.

We've got the Pr. 636.3 Improved Kilo, it would be good to get the initial Pr. 877 (only model change would be the screw and maybe some of the masts).

Though at this point, given that we lack ASW functionality (despite having assets both with ASW capability and assets exclusively dedicated to it), I'm much more interested in surface assets than submarines - they are much more relevant to DCS as it currently stands.

On 8/6/2022 at 5:54 AM, upyr1 said:

The next question with the Typhoon or any SSBN is should there be nuclear warheads for the missiles? Considering their range that might not be that big of an issue as the mission success goals could be if sub reaches waypoint X it will launch 

Personally, I'd much rather have missions where your tasked with intercepting a likely SSN/SSGN threatening a task force/battle group or searching for a diesel boat attempting to insert SOF with the goal of sabotaging an airfield or naval base or something.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Northstar98