Some personal opinion on f14's flight model during refueling

[Ddg1500]

Hello, i'm a big fan of heatblur's f14 moduel, recently i've tried to do aerial refueling with my virpil hotas, but i always can't put the probe into the basket, mainly because the f14 is too sensitive over contorl, it either pitch way too sensitively or bank too much, even if i sweep the wings to bomb mode or give it a curvature of 25 on both x and y axises, and make the most minor control over the stick, it still fly too sensitively, so i think there might be something wrong with the flight model, after watching some real refueling footage, i think their is some huge difference between the flight model and real life.

in the footage(see 4:46), it's seens tomcat is apperantly more controllable at all aspects at aerial refueling in real life, whereas in dcs tomcat literally would fly over if done the same, i've tried multipule times and i can confidently say that, so maybe there is some inaccuracy in the flight model. Maybe it needs some more tuning on the flight model.

 

 

[DSplayer]

A/A refueling in the Tomcat is definitely tricky. For the last week I've been wrestling with every plane in DCS in order to try to do A/A refueling and the Tomcat was definitely one of the harder probe-and-drogue planes to A/A refuel next to the Harrier. Once I got it down tho, I feel like is super easy and requires a lot of tiny movements of the stick (and I even removed the 15 curve I put on for exclusively A/A refueling). Of course, when compared to real life, the Tomcat has a longer throw for its stick when compared to HOTASes at home (especially desktop ones) so that would definitely help when doing more finer movements IRL. But even IRL, there are cruise videos of Tomcats having problems getting into the basket as well so I feel like it isn't a DCS only thing.

[Lt_Jaeger]

Nothing wrong with the flight model for me (would not know though, just an armchair pilot) but more a shortcoming of the input devices and maybe techniques. I have the bird trimmed to be able to fly an almost hands off refueling, which for sure is a perishable skill but once mastered kinda easy. Ok, I got a superb vkb base with a 20cm extension, so I'm able to do fine corrections with 2 fingers. Got a slight curve set, but that is for personal preference, aar is easy doable without. 

So, even if it sounds arrogant, keep on trying, maybe improve your controller, but no need to dump down the FM. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Lt_Jaeger

[WinOrLose]

I find putting in a bit of effort to match speed and trim while in the observation left position pays huge dividends.

Once properly trimmed and matching speed throttle back slightily to slide back into position then throttle back up to just over the previous setting to slowing bring you back to the basket.

[Sacarino111]

1 hour ago, WinOrLose said:

I find putting in a bit of effort to match speed and trim while in the observation left position pays huge dividends.

Best of the advices. 

To me, Wings in bomb mode, so the Tomcat does not pitch up that much when adding power, trim it to formation flying with the tanker in obs position, and then try the AAR thing. You should be able to keep position with two fingers ( or three fingertips), light touches and wiggle you toes very often, as you build up tension very quickly when the basket is teasing you.

And, according to Ward Karroll, up and down of you probe is done by roll left/right and right/left is done with rudders! 

I also struggled a lot with the F14, so I started with the A model (less throttle sensitive) and a big tanker (C130) so the basquet is more stable, then moved to the S3, and then to the B model, all done with bomb mode for the wings and a straight flight pattern. When proficient, I switched to a race track patern, and finally to an orbiting pattern.

You are not alone...

Saca111

[Frosty2124]

one of the biggest challenges in general with sim flying compared to real world flying, is the lack of feeling between you and the aircraft, its the same with driving sims aswell, you'd be surprised how much that little bit of feedback can help you to anticipate the aircrafts movements.

From what i can gather from your post, you might be flying reactively, waiting for the aircraft to move before correcting. try flying proactively,  you know what effect your inputs will have and should be able to fly with that in mind.

For example: when behind the tanker, a throttle correction will more than likely result in an over shoot of your target point. by flying proactively and anticipating the overshoot you can minimise the impact of it.

the same is true for stick inputs. AAR is hard, it takes time, practice and above all patience. it can be easy to get frustrated, try not to though as it will make it more difficult.

[lunaticfringe]

2 hours ago, Sacarino111 said:

And, according to Ward Karroll, up and down of you probe is done by roll left/right and right/left is done with rudders! 

Roll changes your lift vector, so if you're trimmed out to level, rolling away from lift "up" 90 degrees from the horizon is going to lower your nose (as the full extent of your lift is now moving away from maintaining level flight), whereas using yaw through the rudder is going to keep said wings in the level flight trim condition.  

Throttle also changes your nose pitch position relative to level flight trim state. 

Get stabilized and trimmed to level flight.  Walk it into the basket, and think ahead of what your inputs will do.   

[Golo]

6 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

Roll changes your lift vector, so if you're trimmed out to level, rolling away from lift "up" 90 degrees from the horizon is going to lower your nose (as the full extent of your lift is now moving away from maintaining level flight), whereas using yaw through the rudder is going to keep said wings in the level flight trim condition.

I dont think he (Ward) was referring to lift like that (it might be component of it too), but rather to position changes of ref. probe during roll. If you roll right you lower your probe and if you roll left you rise it because of where its mounted on the airplane.

Anyway to OP, I have no problem refueling at all (in a daytime, night sux, absolutely no depth preception), I can do it with 2 fingers, as many others here can too. Saying there is something wrong with FM because you have hard time with when others can do it just fine is, well, lazy.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

From personal experience, I can say that the mounting position of your stick (use a 200mm extension if you can) and the tension you put on it (since you're using Virpil, try changing the springs) can make a huge difference.
It does require some experimentation, but yes I also believe it's more a limitation of our peripherals rather than a fault of the flight model...

[Sacarino111]

38 minutes ago, Golo said:

I dont think he (Ward) was referring to lift like that (it might be component of it too), but rather to position changes of ref. probe during roll. If you roll right you lower your probe and if you roll left you rise it because of where its mounted on the airplane.

Yep, I m with you... I understood it that way.

Saludos.

Saca111

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Ddg1500:

Hello, i'm a big fan of heatblur's f14 moduel, recently i've tried to do aerial refueling with my virpil hotas, but i always can't put the probe into the basket, mainly because the f14 is too sensitive over contorl, it either pitch way too sensitively or bank too much, even if i sweep the wings to bomb mode or give it a curvature of 25 on both x and y axises, and make the most minor control over the stick, it still fly too sensitively, so i think there might be something wrong with the flight model, after watching some real refueling footage, i think their is some huge difference between the flight model and real life.

Have you checked if you have any "double bindings" on your control axis? Maybe something is interfering with your input device?

Because otherwise, it's all you, mate. 

I have absolutely no problems with AARing in the Tomcat, with a bog-standard (= no modifications), 10+ years old Logitech G940 HOTAS. I have zero curves and a tiny deadzone (1). Personally, I find the Tomcat to be the easiest module within DCS to AAR in.

Excluding any "outside issues" like controller setup problems, my advice for you would be to just practice handling the F-14 (both A and B) in free flight.

Set curves to zero on all axis. Tiny deadzone (1 or 2, depending on your stick and rudders).

I make it a point to jump into a free flight instant action mission for half an hour or so, every time I come back to the Tomcat after spending some time in another module, and just practice precise flying.

For example: keeping the VVI needle centered during cruise at different speeds and altitudes, turning without loosing/ gaining altitude, employing the rudder, formation flying, correct overhead breaks and AAR. In short, build (or regain) the necessary muscle memory

Once you have that down cold, AAR should be a breeze. 

[captain_dalan]

20 hours ago, Ddg1500 said:

...with my virpil hotas, but i always can't put the probe into the basket, mainly because the f14 is too sensitive over contorl, it either pitch way too sensitively or bank too much, even if i sweep the wings to bomb mode or give it a curvature of 25 on both x and y axises, and make the most minor control over the stick, it still fly too sensitively, so i think there might be something wrong with the flight model......

 

Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it's the flight model's fault. 

20 hours ago, Ddg1500 said:

...

in the footage(see 4:46), it's seens tomcat is apperantly more controllable at all aspects at aerial refueling in real life, whereas in dcs tomcat literally would fly over if done the same, i've tried multipule times and i can confidently say that, so maybe there is some inaccuracy in the flight model. Maybe it needs some more tuning on the flight model....

You are trying to compare setup which you can't reproduce. As others have mentioned, there is a lot of nuance in RL flying that sim setups can't properly replicate. 

The following is a small demo i just made. It's not supposed to be representative, or a tutorial on AAR. Rather, it's just a small proof of concept, pairing the F-14A and S-3B (two aircraft that many users avoid like the plague, due to their "temperament" in AAR and flying in general), on how with a relatively cheap and antiquated setup, plugging and staying connected is very much possible, with enough practice and discipline. Now, this video doesn't really demonstrate the entire process (which requires more then just connecting, but flying in formation for prolonged periods of time), rather just short sips of taking fuel, even in a banking S-3B, with its small size, and ultra stiff hose. If you like, i can record the entire process, but it won't help you much, as flying in formation, isn't something you can learn (in my experience) by watching, but rather by doing. Oh, and BTW, this is clumsy me after a couple of months NOT practicing at all, that is, my first attempt:
 

I also recorded my axis setup and my inputs. No curves on the roll-pitch axis, and actually a throttle curve which reduces travel distance available in mil power. Essentially a handicap setup in a way.
My setup (that many people wouldn't even sneeze at),a lowly CH Fighterstick and TWCS throttle. As you can see, i don't even have rudder paddles, and i use the rockers of the throttle for that input:




EDIT:
As @Jayhawk1971 mentioned, unless it's an actual hardware issue with the input devices (malfunction or double mapping) it's only a matter of practice. Maybe it would help if you recorded your attempts, so we can better diagnose your problem?

EDIT 2:
Oh heck, i had an itch  for refueling, here's the whole ordeal, blunders included:
 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by captain_dalan

[draconus]

HB's SME, RL pilot once said it's a bit more difficult to AAR in DCS F-14 than RL. We don't know if it was because of lack of seat-of-the-pants, DCS environment, F-14 FM or his control stick and display device though. OTOH it's far from any superhuman achievements as multitude of us are fine doing it with cheap stick, monitor, even in Wings Auto and no curves at all.

Edited September 2, 2022 by draconus

[Clunk1001]

The f14 in dcs is hyper sensitive to the tiniest of inputs. Very noticeable in refuelling. However, rl aircraft are too, can’t speak for the f14 itself. but precision flying (e.g. ILS to minimums on a dead calm night) would involve the minutest of control inputs that would be almost invisible to an observer (<1mm movement of the stick).  As already mentioned above, much of it in rl is done with feel, especially where trim is concerned -  in games you tend to have to trim by ‘observing’ undesired pitch using visual cues, irl it’s nothing like that at all and it’s done mainly by feel -  you’re trimming undesired ‘force’ out of the stick. You just can’t replicate the same thing in a pc sim.

I suspect the real aircraft is less ‘twitchy’ at these lower speeds. However, I think the balance heatblur have got here is good.  

It takes many many hours practice to get it right.  If you haven’t done it for a while it will go horribly wrong.  And some people simply won’t be able to do it. This is so similar to many aspects of rl flying. [edit: it’s why I think heatblurs f14 is one of the best flight sim experiences I’ve seen, in 30 years of flying, and 30 years of flight sims]

There are a few good tutorials on YouTube - sweep the wings, focus on a point on the tanker rather than chasing the basket.  my main tip would be get your speed absolutely nailed first, practice just sitting behind the basket for a while with minimal throttle corrections.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Clunk1001

[Dragon1-1]

19 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

You just can’t replicate the same thing in a pc sim.

Sure you can, motion platform and FFB stick.  Expensive, but people fly like that, and DCS supports it, even if FFB is a bit hit or miss at this point. 

You don't need that, though. I did it with a CH Fighterstick and Pro Throttle, sitting in my chair. Practice formation flying and learn the sight picture. Also, 30 on the hose (AA mode, the "30" is on the pitch ladder). This helped me a lot with alignment.

[Clunk1001]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Sure you can, motion platform and FFB stick.  Expensive, but people fly like that, and DCS supports it, even if FFB is a bit hit or miss at this point. 

 

That’s a bit like putting a leather flying hat and goggles on and thinking it makes dcs more ‘realistic’. 
there’s always going to be a vast chasm between simulation and real life flying.  And it’s important to accept that.

On the PC it’s about balancing playability with perceived ‘realism’.  Which I think heatblur are doing relatively well.

[zildac]

Stick the wings in "bomb mode" and get a feel to start with.

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Clunk1001 said:

That’s a bit like putting a leather flying hat and goggles on and thinking it makes dcs more ‘realistic’. 

In AAR and other high-precision flying, it replicates the seat of the pants cues you're missing. For combat, it's inadequate because you only ever get 1G, no more, no less, but for gently flying around or precision flight, it's the best you can get. Commercial motion simulators are pretty much that, only with an airliner's flight deck in them.

Sure, it'll never feel quite the same, but you won't be at as much a disadvantage with such a rig.

[Jayhawk1971]

What Dragon1-1 said. 

Also, motion platforms aren't that expensive anymore. There seem to be quite decent ones available for around 5000 bucks (that's less than a Sony A1 camera). 6 DOF. 

[MAXsenna]

What Dragon1-1 said. 
Also, motion platforms aren't that expensive anymore. There seem to be quite decent ones available for around 5000 bucks (that's less than a Sony A1 camera). 6 DOF. 

YMMV

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[Jayhawk1971]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb MAXsenna:

YMMV

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IDK, from what I've seen, those platforms seemed decent enough. If it's good enough for sim racing, I suppose it'll be good enough for DCS....and the civvy one. As long as you don't want to mount a full-fledged homepit onto the thing. All I need to mount on top of it is a seat (if it doesn't come with one), a HOTAS, maybe a keyboard, a VR headset, and my elven-like arse.  My biggest concern would be longevity. 

Edit: I've also found one for 180,000. Full 360° range of motion. Need to save up a little more, buy a garage, and invest in barf bags.  

Edited September 3, 2022 by Jayhawk1971

[MAXsenna]

IDK, from what I've seen, those platforms seemed decent enough. If it's good enough for sim racing, I suppose it'll be good enough for DCS....and the civvy one. As long as you don't want to mount a full-fledged homepit onto the thing. All I need to mount on top of it is a seat (if it doesn't come with one), a HOTAS, maybe a keyboard, a VR headset, and my elven-like arse.  My biggest concert would be longevity. 
Edit: I've also found one for 180,000. Full 360° range of motion. Need to save up a little more, buy a garage, and invest in barf bags.  

Oh! Don't get me wrong. I'm sure they are fantastic. It was your notion, "not that expensive anymore", I was reacting too.

Cheers!

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[Jayhawk1971]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb MAXsenna:

Oh! Don't get me wrong. I'm sure they are fantastic. It was your notion, "not that expensive anymore", I was reacting too.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

Ok, let's say "comparatively" not that expensive anymore.   

Some of those things I've found when I googled probably cost more than a PPL and a lasik, and a used Piper Cup,  so 5000 Euros are "nothing" in comparison  

 

[MAXsenna]

Ok, let's say "comparatively" not that expensive anymore.   
Some of those things I've found when I googled probably cost more than a PPL and a lasik, and a used Piper Cup,  so 5000 Euros are "nothing" in comparison  
 

Haha! Yeah, I can agree with that.
I bought my first, (and only), VR "helmet" back in -97 for around USD600. A lot back then being a student. Not soooo much today.

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[Flash_111]

The techniques that come from learning how to fly parade formation may help as well.