DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[captain_dalan]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:43 AM, WarthogOsl said:

I feel like the lofting changed before the looping patch, but after the impulse reduction patch.  But, good to know they are working on it regardless.

Definitely after the impulse patch, as my tests were done immediately after the impulse reduction  and the new guidance logic implementation. 

[cmbaviator]

Hello,

 

Haven't flown the F14  yet but sutdying it via the chuck guide.

 

I'll mostly fly the F14 in the GS and the futur tempest server. I have 2 questions:

 

1. If i launch a AIM54C-47 in TWS Auto, will it be guided by the F14 inboard radar if i can maintain lock until impact and go pitbull if i lose lock ?
2. If I launch a AIM54C-47 in a STT lock via PAL ( STT lock up to 20Nm), will it be launched in pitbull direclty of the rails ?

Edited October 11, 2022 by cmbaviator

[IronMike]

52 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

Hello,

 

Haven't flown the F14  yet but sutdying it via the chuck guide.

 

I'll mostly fly the F14 in the GS and the futur tempest server. I have 2 questions:

 

1. If i launch a AIM54C-47 in TWS Auto, will it be guided by the F14 inboard radar if i can maintain lock until impact and go pitbull if i lose lock ?
2. If I launch a AIM54C-47 in a STT lock via PAL ( STT lock up to 20Nm), will it be launched in pitbull direclty of the rails ?

 

1. yes, but like the -A, it will go active at a set range to the target, even if guided. Means at 10nm to be precise. It will go active earlier if you lose lock - but depending on how far from target this does not necessarily guarantee successful guidance.
2. Yes, as PAL uses PSTT, and PSTT launches are active off the rails for both -A and -C variants.

[Meteorlover]

11 hours ago, IronMike said:

1. yes, but like the -A, it will go active at a set range to the target, even if guided. Means at 10nm to be precise. It will go active earlier if you lose lock - but depending on how far from target this does not necessarily guarantee successful guidance.
2. Yes, as PAL uses PSTT, and PSTT launches are active off the rails for both -A and -C variants.

Will AIM54C be activated in 10NM regardless of target size?

[Comstedt86]

42 minutes ago, Meteorlover said:

Will AIM54C be activated in 10NM regardless of target size?

Yes. TGT size switch only affects the A models as of now (DCS limitation)

[eatthis]

On 10/9/2022 at 1:17 PM, IronMike said:

In TWS the AWG9 only allows you to fire 1 missile per track. As Noctrach mentions above, for double taps you need to fire in PDSTT, or trash the existing track, let the AWG9 build a new track and then fire again. But it is not advised.

yeh i saw your answer in another thread, that clears that up thanks

[cmbaviator]

how to select between the MK47 mod 0 and Mod 1 ?

[BubiHUN]

2 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

how to select between the MK47 mod 0 and Mod 1 ?

this interests me as well

[Naquaii]

5 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

how to select between the MK47 mod 0 and Mod 1 ?

The only way to do that is via the selected payload and the launch sequence. The WCS does not allow for anything but the standard launch sequence regardless of missile type.

[cmbaviator]

Well the AIM54 is useless in PvP. i never been so frustrated in GS server, i can barely get a kill with the F14.

 

I launch the AIM54C at 50+Nm so way above the Rmax of the 120 but as you need to wait like 120+s before it gets pitbull, even if you get down and crank, you will get in th Rmax and NZE of those 120 get shjot down way before those 54C gets pitbull.. all are launched in the TWS auto.

i've only made 2-3 kills with the 54C  with target  below 15Nm

[Callsign JoNay]

8 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

Well the AIM54 is useless in PvP. i never been so frustrated in GS server, i can barely get a kill with the F14.

 

I launch the AIM54C at 50+Nm so way above the Rmax of the 120 but as you need to wait like 120+s before it gets pitbull, even if you get down and crank, you will get in th Rmax and NZE of those 120 get shjot down way before those 54C gets pitbull.. all are launched in the TWS auto.

i've only made 2-3 kills with the 54C  with target  below 15Nm

ED borked the 54 lofting profile on Sept 21. It should get a little bit better if they are able to correct it in the next patch. My biggest concern is how easy it is to notch the 54 now. The missile used to hold course after getting notched and try to pick the pitbull up again, now they just scoop upwards harmlessly away from the target. 

[RustBelt]

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

Well the AIM54 is useless in PvP. i never been so frustrated in GS server, i can barely get a kill with the F14.

 

I launch the AIM54C at 50+Nm so way above the Rmax of the 120 but as you need to wait like 120+s before it gets pitbull, even if you get down and crank, you will get in th Rmax and NZE of those 120 get shjot down way before those 54C gets pitbull.. all are launched in the TWS auto.

i've only made 2-3 kills with the 54C  with target  below 15Nm

Don’t launch on PvP fighters in TWS. Shoot STTPD and bugout when you feel the need to bugout and the Phoenix will go active (I think). Unlike in TWS. 
 

Also, you’re fighting planes with a generation newer FOX3. Plan accordingly. Stay out of their kill radius.

[WarthogOsl]

53 minutes ago, Callsign JoNay said:

ED borked the 54 lofting profile on Sept 21. It should get a little bit better if they are able to correct it in the next patch. My biggest concern is how easy it is to notch the 54 now. The missile used to hold course after getting notched and try to pick the pitbull up again, now they just scoop upwards harmlessly away from the target. 

FWIW, I started manually lofting again...like 20 degrees nose up.  That seems to get the missile going in a profile that's more similar to how it used to be (in other words, the missile isn't flying level for like five seconds after launch).  I have not seen it cause an over-loft issue, though I'm not sure it makes a huge difference in the loft altitude either.  It makes me feel better though.

The whole Phoenix suddenly going nose high on intercept thing bugs me.  I wonder if it's actually modeling real behavior...like if the missile loses lock, is it really commanded to go full nose up pitch?

[captain_dalan]

24 minutes ago, WarthogOsl said:

FWIW, I started manually lofting again...like 20 degrees nose up.  That seems to get the missile going in a profile that's more similar to how it used to be

Manual lofting seems to help with the trajectory, but only a bit. Even with the assisted loft, it heavily resists lofting. As an illustration, a sub angels 30 subsonic launch at 50+ nautical mile hot target from a mach 0.90 platform used to result in 70+ angels loft apex. Without any loft assist. Now it takes angels 43 with a 15 degree loft assist, all other conditions the same, to reach the same apex. On top of that, the optimal range for launch is now much more narrower with steeper probability curves, especially on the closer side of the bell curve. If you observe the missile closely during it's initial lofting phase, it looks like something is actually pulling it down and the missile struggles to keep the nose up.

24 minutes ago, WarthogOsl said:

 

The whole Phoenix suddenly going nose high on intercept thing bugs me.  I wonder if it's actually modeling real behavior...like if the missile loses lock, is it really commanded to go full nose up pitch?

I have never heard of a missile of any kind going belly up when losing lock or LOS. My guess is that it's just another ancient code relic. 

[Callsign JoNay]

2 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

FWIW, I started manually lofting again...like 20 degrees nose up.

Same. In fact I've been lofting all the way to 30 deg. It's the only way to get the missile into the 80-90Ks. 

I'm hoping for good things this patch.

[Exorcet]

With the current Phoenix I find high altitude launches more helpful than loft assist. You want the missile to do as little turning as possible, otherwise it will spend all its energy. At this point I'm just waiting for the 54 to get the 120's code so it can be programmed properly.

[cmbaviator]

7 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Don’t launch on PvP fighters in TWS. Shoot STTPD and bugout when you feel the need to bugout and the Phoenix will go active (I think). Unlike in TWS. 
 

Also, you’re fighting planes with a generation newer FOX3. Plan accordingly. Stay out of their kill radius.

but its useless as at 50Nm, in STT they will have a EWR warning about being locked and missile launch, at those distance they will defend easily, that why i launch in TWS so that they onlky get notified when the missile goes pitbull?

 

How to get out of the Rmax as you have to wait for the AI%54 to go pitbull and it takes several minutes

 

[captain_dalan]

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

but its useless as at 50Nm, in STT they will have a EWR warning about being locked and missile launch, at those distance they will defend easily, that why i launch in TWS so that they onlky get notified when the missile goes pitbull?

 

And they don't defend against an F-14 blip on their RWR inside 50 miles? Just because no missile flashes on it? Are you sure you're flying against other humans?

[The_Tau]

44 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

And they don't defend against an F-14 blip on their RWR inside 50 miles? Just because no missile flashes on it? Are you sure you're flying against other humans?

I mean its depends on pilot really, some will defend, some not, or they know the distance to threat. In my personal opinion TWS at longer range is better, shooting at bandit 20nm away is different story, and I would use PDSTT. 

AIM54 is just much more sensitive to launch parameters then 120 it got quite big "trash zones" in which launching 54 in specific radar mode at specific slant range is almost guaranteed to be a waste, so yea, in Quake War of GS aim 54 would be simply worse in most circumstances then 120. As F14 you need to sweat a bit more then typical F16 to get kills. But i tell you its still possible. a lot it comes to tricking the opponent. Sometimes I fire at 60 nm away at 45-50k (i would say for 54 40k alt at launch for long range shots is minimum) and then I will NOT crank to make bandit think that i still hold fire, waiting for him to get closer. Sometimes I fire AIM7 at ridiculous ranges to make him go defensive and then close in, Break lock but keep TCS lock to make him think you lost him. Sometimes things work, sometimes not. Need to be creative, Its almost like it seems that 1986 AWG9/aim54C is older system then 2007 F16/120/HMD/L16 combo... huh... 

Edited October 15, 2022 by The_Tau

[cmbaviator]

1 hour ago, captain_dalan said:

And they don't defend against an F-14 blip on their RWR inside 50 miles? Just because no missile flashes on it? Are you sure you're flying against other humans?

i only fly on GS and soon on Tempest server

56 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

I mean its depends on pilot really, some will defend, some not, or they know the distance to threat. In my personal opinion TWS at longer range is better, shooting at bandit 20nm away is different story, and I would use PDSTT. 

AIM54 is just much more sensitive to launch parameters then 120 it got quite big "trash zones" in which launching 54 in specific radar mode at specific slant range is almost guaranteed to be a waste, so yea, in Quake War of GS aim 54 would be simply worse in most circumstances then 120. As F14 you need to sweat a bit more then typical F16 to get kills. But i tell you its still possible. a lot it comes to tricking the opponent. Sometimes I fire at 60 nm away at 45-50k (i would say for 54 40k alt at launch for long range shots is minimum) and then I will NOT crank to make bandit think that i still hold fire, waiting for him to get closer. Sometimes I fire AIM7 at ridiculous ranges to make him go defensive and then close in, Break lock but keep TCS lock to make him think you lost him. Sometimes things work, sometimes not. Need to be creative, Its almost like it seems that 1986 AWG9/aim54C is older system then 2007 F16/120/HMD/L16 combo... huh... 

 

yes but on GS is quite chaotic as there is 50+ players almost every time if not 60-64, so you barely time to get to 40k+ feets, i tried to go high but there is always flankers and other redfor aircraft down the deck on the valleys waiting for hight altitude aircraft to be spotted by awacks then fired their FOX3 from the valleys and go defensive straight after.

 

besides you can fire your AIM54 at 60+Nm but by the time the missile arrive on scene, the target already went defensive or  got splashed

[The_Tau]

6 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

i only fly on GS and soon on Tempest server

yes but on GS is quite chaotic as there is 50+ players almost every time if not 60-64, so you barely time to get to 40k+ feets, i tried to go high but there is always flankers and other redfor aircraft down the deck on the valleys waiting for hight altitude aircraft to be spotted by awacks then fired their FOX3 from the valleys and go defensive straight after.

 

besides you can fire your AIM54 at 60+Nm but by the time the missile arrive on scene, the target already went defensive or  got splashed

thats why i dont like GS Team Deathmatch in F14. Its just very artificial environment and personally i want to fly much more closer to RL as weapons systems were developed to RL scenarios.  There are other PvP servers like BlueFlag or Alpen's Cold War with much more time to position yourself properly, think tactically, have distance to actually climb and fire at 60nm away and do much more "by the book" of USN. Sure, you dont get 6 kills in 5 mins, but each kill you make is much more satisfying. when you have to take into consideration other factors.

[draconus]

14 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Shoot STTPD and bugout when you feel the need to bugout and the Phoenix will go active (I think). Unlike in TWS. 

54C will go active for both STT and TWS afaik.

[cmbaviator]

3 minutes ago, draconus said:

54C will go active for both STT and TWS afaik.

yeah but in TWS, it will go active in the terminal phase so the eenmy wont be warm by a missile launch. in STT, the ennemy will now that the AIM54 have been launched

[Callsign JoNay]

13 hours ago, Exorcet said:

With the current Phoenix I find high altitude launches more helpful than loft assist. You want the missile to do as little turning as possible, otherwise it will spend all its energy. At this point I'm just waiting for the 54 to get the 120's code so it can be programmed properly.

I don't, not at all. Even at high altitudes the missile only lofts up to 65K max. Sometimes not even 60k. It flies a relatively flat trajectory through air that is still somewhat thick. The only way to get it into the 80-90k range (right now) is to loft. You'll get a better PK% shot by lofting at 30-deg from 25k than you will with a level shot at 40k.

But even then, the missile is so garbage right now at dealing with a notch that it doesn't matter in the end. If the target turns even somewhat close to a 90-deg aspect during the active/pitbull phase it's a trashed missile.

Edit/add: And on top of that, we are getting jamming effects next patch so it might be extra game over for the Tomcat depending on what range we get burn through. If we get burn through at the same standard 29 nm as other 4th gens then the last advantage the Tomcat has (AWG-9) will be nullified. RIP. The Tomcat seems to exist in no man's land. Too strong for 3rd gen cold war era environments, and too weak for modern 4th gen. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Callsign JoNay

[draconus]

2 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

yeah but in TWS, it will go active in the terminal phase so the eenmy wont be warm by a missile launch. in STT, the ennemy will now that the AIM54 have been launched

That only works against rookie pilots as already explained by cpt. Dalan and The Tau.

Edited October 15, 2022 by draconus