DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[WarthogOsl]

2 hours ago, Endline said:

Can anyone try the Marianas Dragon Tooth BVR instant action with the F-14A and 54As? Had two runs yesterday, launching from 37,000+ at ~1.1 Mach from a distance between 40 and 50 miles. Both I and the AI wingman went 0/8. 0/16 in total.

Is that the one where you go against like 4 Flankers?  If so, I believe HB have said the mission is bugged in part because the bandits are flying too close together, and it effects the Phoenix guidance unrealistically.

[FMBluecher]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:05 AM, Karon said:

Déjà vu. I reckon I've already shared with you videos and possible something else showing you that the Phoenix is different, but it performs its role of long-range missile perfectly (ergo, P_K ~40%,50%).
If multiple kills at 60nm, and up to 75 nm vs Veteran and Ace AI are not enough to convince you, nothing will.

What sort of launch parameters are you using with these launches? 40-50% is significantly higher than my current Pk, so I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong. Is it mostly just that I need to be at really high altitude?

Edit: just saw that you have a youtube video about it, I'll check that out!

Edited January 11, 2023 by FMBluecher

[Endline]

19 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

Is that the one where you go against like 4 Flankers?  If so, I believe HB have said the mission is bugged in part because the bandits are flying too close together, and it effects the Phoenix guidance unrealistically.

Yes that's the one, 4 J-11s. It makes sense if it is bugged, since it seems impossible to get a hit.

[The_Tau]

Even after best launch conditions 54A are easy to chaff by AI so its really up to luck if they hit or not...

[BubiHUN]

14 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

Even after best launch conditions 54A are easy to chaff by AI so its really up to luck if they hit or not...

it doesnt matter. Those few know everything, they are the best players with F-14, so they can launch them at targets without even one miss.
Or they somehow managed to get 1 missile hit one of the bandits wich doesnt have RWR so its a perfect weapon in the current state.
Get over it

[DD_Fenrir]

Just now, BubiHUN said:

it doesnt matter. Those few know everything, they are the best players with F-14, so they can launch them at targets without even one miss.
Or they somehow managed to get 1 missile hit one of the bandits wich doesnt have RWR so its a perfect weapon in the current state.
Get over it

Your histrionics and snyde comments are getting boring and tiresome Bubi.

We're all dealing with the same issues - just some of us are mature enough to test where the EMPLOYMENT opportunities exist to give you a reasonable Pk (~40-50%) plus look into what and where the issues exist that cause misses.

These are almost exclusively tied into terminal phase notch behaviour - a guidance issue; therefore an ED issue - and the AI omniscience as to the position of an attacking missile and their ability to notch perfectly - again an issue for ED to address.

These have been highlighted already - repeatedly.

Don't like it? Go fly the F-14 in a different sim...

 

[BubiHUN]

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Your histrionics and snyde comments are getting boring and tiresome Bubi.

We're all dealing with the same issues - just some of us are mature enough to test where the EMPLOYMENT opportunities exist to give you a reasonable Pk (~40-50%) plus look into what and where the issues exist that cause misses.

These are almost exclusively tied into terminal phase notch behaviour - a guidance issue; therefore an ED issue - and the AI omniscience as to the position of an attacking missile and their ability to notch perfectly - again an issue for ED to address.

These have been highlighted already - repeatedly.

Don't like it? Go fly the F-14 in a different sim...

 

thank you for the constructive criticism and your supportive comment. 
 

[Hardcard]

On 1/9/2023 at 4:34 PM, DD_Fenrir said:

Burn times are apparently correct according to Heatblur and they've got the data so I'm inclined to trust them.

I'd be less inclined to do so, since HB also had "the data" before and turned out to be false (by HB's own admission).
 

Here's hoping that they'll find their current data to be false in the near future and phoenixes will be tweaked again, but in a positive way. 

[DD_Fenrir]

4 minutes ago, Hardcard said:

I'd be less inclined to do so, since HB also had "the data" before and turned out to be false (by HB's own admission).
 

Here's hoping that they'll find their current data to be false in the near future and phoenixes will be tweaked again, but in a positive way. 

That is a massive oversimplification and disingenuous to boot; it also paints HeatBlur in an unflattering light and one that they decidedly do not deserve.

For your information the initial data was accurate -  however, as HeatBlur themselves admitted their interpretation was off.

It was then CORRECTED in light of the new clarifying data.

Welcome to the scientific method. How all engineering problems are and should be solved.

 

[Karon]

11 hours ago, FMBluecher said:

What sort of launch parameters are you using with these launches? 40-50% is significantly higher than my current Pk, so I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong. Is it mostly just that I need to be at really high altitude?

Edit: just saw that you have a youtube video about it, I'll check that out!

So, post AIM-7 study, I noticed how the loft drastically improve the missile. It even performed better than a Phoenix launched with the "old" parameters. I have waited a few months for the implementation to stabilise, and I'm working on a more in-depth study about the AIM-54. It's nowhere near as in depth as the one I made in 2019 though (with 3500-something AIM-54s launched)!

That being said, it seems we are really back to the manual loft game, something that was necessary with the old 54 and the Mk60, but that, as mentioned, always really helped the AIM-7.
For instance, at 60nm, 0TA/ATA, A35, the endgame speed of the AIM-54C default is M1.77. With a 30° loft, it goes up to M2.25. Nothing crazy, but every little helps. On the other hand, there are several drawbacks and curious facts that I'll discuss when I complete the data-collection phase.

Apologies for the plug in, but I posted with rough video 5' ago, answering a question about how to deal with the new omniscient Ace AI with the new AIM-54. I recorded the footage a couple of days ago, without even rehearsing it. See if it helps.
Btw, avoid Ace AI, it's just dumb. Veteran cheats, but looks much more realistic imo.

Spoiler

 

@BubiHUN we're still waiting for your tracks.

[FMBluecher]

@Karonthanks, this is very helpful!

[TomcatFan1976]

The Phoenix missile is a very deadly missile. The 6 on 6 test proved to be very accurate, and those were the very early 54a model. Then again we can refer to the Iran-Iraq war, where the Iranians had tons of kills from the Phoenix missile. They proved to be very accurate and deadly against Iraqi fighters. The Phoenix is believed to be designed for Bomber size targets, at least I hear that a lot. Although this was one of the primary threats, they were not designed strictly for this purpose. The were also design to intercept ICBM's flying super sonic and cruise missiles that fly very close to the ground. The cold war threat were Russian bombers, but was mostly Nuclear weapons, i.e ICBMs. The phoenix has been proving to track targets at very high altitudes and right down to 50 ft off the ground. They were very hard to jam, especially the 54c models. One reason why when an enemy fighter received an alert that they were being tracked or locked by a Tomcat, they turned around and left. They knew how deadly the Tomcat/Phoenix combo was. Check out this video and see what you think.....

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by TomcatFan1976
Misspelling

[Machalot]

2 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

The were also design to intercept ICBM's flying super sonic and very close to the ground.

I think you've misunderstood something here.  Maybe it could engage low flying cruise missiles, but definitely not ICBMs.

[TomcatFan1976]

I didn't misunderstand anything. I was just saying that ICBM's were also a threat that the Tomcat could face on top of cruise missile and other smaller threats... do i have to list every single possible threat. ICBM's were just as much a threat as there was cruise missiles.

[Wingmate]

ICBM's don't fly close to the ground like cruise missiles, they come down from space on a ballistic trajectory. An AIM-54 is not going to be able to intercept it.

[Callsign JoNay]

Low flying intercontinental missiles? 

[TomcatFan1976]

i meant to say ICBM's and cruise missiles that fly very close to the ground, omg....relax

[Frosty2124]

19 minutes ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

I didn't misunderstand anything. I was just saying that ICBM's were also a threat that the Tomcat could face on top of cruise missile and other smaller threats... do i have to list every single possible threat. ICBM's were just as much a threat as there was cruise missiles.

the engagement window for a ICBM with something as small as a phoenix would be tiny, and the tomcat would have to be way behind enemy lines, which means there are bigger problems occurring, generally ICBM interception was undertaken by land and sea based missiles (and satellites  with frickin laser beams attached to their heads if rumours are to be believed).

in short whilst YES an phoenix COULD, the parameter for such an engagement are so niche that its effectively impossible

4 minutes ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

i meant to say ICBM's and cruise missiles that fly very close to the ground, omg....relax

yeah, but ICBMs don't, the B stands for ballistic, in reference to their flight trajectory; basically straight up and then down. there were nuclear tipped cruise missiles, maybe this is where there is some confusion?

Edited January 15, 2023 by Frosty2124

[near_blind]

An ICBM is going to be reentering the atmosphere at something like Mach 20. The AWG-9 doesn't have the doppler bins to see something going that fast. Assuming the missile was able to be guided, by the time it fuzed the warhead would be past the blast zone. _Even if the blast was in time_ the warhead is going to be made out of things tough enough that anything less than a direct hit isn't going to phase it. 

 

[Machalot]

7 minutes ago, near_blind said:

An ICBM is going to be reentering the atmosphere at something like Mach 20.

Yep. With an initial reentry speed on the order of 20,000 ft/s, it takes only a few tens of seconds to descend from the edge of space, say 400,000 ft, to its burst altitude or ground level. And in the handful of seconds when it's in the engagement altitudes of a Phoenix it's decelerating at possibly tens of Gs.

16 minutes ago, near_blind said:

 _Even if the blast was in time_ the warhead is going to be made out of things tough enough that anything less than a direct hit isn't going to phase it. 

 

Yep, there's also a reason why ballistic missile interceptors use direct kinetic impact aka Hit-to-Kill, because blast frag warheads are ineffective. 

The chance that a Tomcat would ever be flying within intercept range near an ICBM's target is remote. 

[WarthogOsl]

3 hours ago, Machalot said:

Yep. With an initial reentry speed on the order of 20,000 ft/s, it takes only a few tens of seconds to descend from the edge of space, say 400,000 ft, to its burst altitude or ground level. And in the handful of seconds when it's in the engagement altitudes of a Phoenix it's decelerating at possibly tens of Gs.

Yep, there's also a reason why ballistic missile interceptors use direct kinetic impact aka Hit-to-Kill, because blast frag warheads are ineffective. 

The chance that a Tomcat would ever be flying within intercept range near an ICBM's target is remote. 

Plus, an ICBM's total flight time is what, only 30 or 40 minutes?

[LanceCriminal86]

You're not killing an ICBM with anything aircraft carried during the F-14's service life. At that time the only things remotely standing a chance to kill an ICBM were the Nike family of missiles, some of which being nuclear tipped.

[Jayhawk1971]

I bet a Phoenix with glove vanes and frikkin' laser beams on top of it could easily kill 10 ICBM's all at once, as long as the Tomcat crew wear Cowboy hats and have proper staches. 

[cheezit]

What if the reentry vehicle also has glove vanes?

[Jayhawk1971]

vor einer Stunde schrieb cheezit:

What if the reentry vehicle also has glove vanes?

Hmm. That might actually have some countering effect, but then again, not nearly enough to overcome "stache power".  

Also, I don't think the Soviets ever could replicate Grumman's glove vane technology - it was just too awesome.

(it's unclear whether even Hughes/Raytheon could have replicated this awesomeness)

Edited January 16, 2023 by Jayhawk1971