DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[DD_Fenrir]

3 hours ago, The_Tau said:

Thats assuming Iraqi Signal Intelligence did its job and acquired AWG9/AIM54 radar signals for scan/track/lock to add to RWR threat library. It may only happened later in war.

Indeed. Even the Israelis, who are generally considered to be good at staying on top of things like this, were caught out by the SA-6 during the... er... I think it was the Yom Kippur War. Their RWR and ECM systems had never been programmed to pick up/broadcast on the frequency spectrum the SA-6 operated in and thus were useless against it. Their losses were correspondingly high until they figured out what was going on and updated their systems accordingly.

Technology and warfare; you bring new technology to increase lethality and your enemy scrambles to find a way to mitigate or negate that advantage before it becomes decisive. It's as old as arrows and armour. Move & counter move. 

Trouble is people think this doesn't apply to the Phoenix; you can bet that the Eastern Bloc and their Allies were furiously updating their RWR and ECM equipment after the Revolution in Iran (if not before) and were likely aware of the F-14/AWG-9/AIM-54 limitations. Thus it's not beyond the realms of possibility that any Soviet/belligerent nation pilot worth his salt that would potentially face down an F-14 in the years after could well be educated in the tactics to employ that could exploit these.

Topgun instructors would use the same exploits to present Intercept problems to students going through the syllabus in the 1980's - why would they do that if they weren't expecting their foes to be behaving similarly?

Thus the parameters that a 100 mile AIM-54 shot taken from 40,000ft against a bomber sized aircraft in 1971 will not match those of a fighter-to-fighter combat mission of the '80s/early '90s.

Those who march in here and moan loudly that their AIM-54 won't shoot down a fighter at 110nm when launched sub-sonic from 20,000ft and isn't reaching Mach 5 have obviously imbibed a whole lot of the Kool-Aid that the popular science mythology peddles regards the Phoenix.

Don' get me wrong - it's an impressive system, especially considering it' s heritage, but it's impressive when it has a cooperative (non/low-manoeuvring target) and is fired at specific altitudes and airspeeds.

As so often with any piece of engineering to excel in one area means compromising in another. The Phoenixes girth, required for a large enough motor to propel it the distances required and to provide sufficient space for the avionics and radar dish to support a useful active seeker, make the missile heavy and draggier than it's contemporaries; this is mitigated by pushing the missile to 80-90,000ft where the aerodynamic drag is a fraction than at lower altitudes and it matters less.

However, you bring it down into the thicker air at 10-30,000ft and it not only forces a range reduction (and possibly into the WEZ of your opponent) but it suddenly starts to look less impressive against it's contemporaries in terms of speed, range and manoeuvrability.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by DD_Fenrir

[Dannyvandelft]

Well, after reading through a lot of comments here, I launched 2 AIM-54C's tonight, at 39,000 feet, flying close to Mach 1 with target size small, and they hit 2 Su-27's with a flight time of approx 120 seconds. I pulled a little nose high before the launch. I took a left hand offset of about 25° or so after launch, and watched the countdown. Missiles went active roughly 6 to 8 seconds out and found their targets.



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[DSplayer]

15 hours ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

Just curious - what is stopping the Phoenix from going to the "new" API? Since Razbam managed to put the Super 530D on the new one years ago aleady?

 

The Super 530D uses the standard DCS Fox-1 scheme (aa_missile_semi_active) which is a part of the new API. HB and ED would have to make a new schema in order to make the Phoenix operate more true to life and cannot take something like the AIM-120's or SD-10's scheme (aa_missile_amraam2 and aa_missile_amraam respectively) since they operate in their own way for their respective missiles.

[RedeyeStorm]

4 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Well, after reading through a lot of comments here, I launched 2 AIM-54C's tonight, at 39,000 feet, flying close to Mach 1 with target size small, and they hit 2 Su-27's with a flight time of approx 120 seconds. I pulled a little nose high before the launch. I took a left hand offset of about 25° or so after launch, and watched the countdown. Missiles went active roughly 6 to 8 seconds out and found their targets.



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Do you remember at what range you fired? 
 

I am still trying to figure out how to use them proper.

[FMBluecher]

5 hours ago, RedeyeStorm said:

Do you remember at what range you fired? 
 

I am still trying to figure out how to use them proper.

There's been a recent series of videos by FlyAndWire on YouTube that have been very helpful for me. This is one of the most important ones:

But Part II of this series is also useful. After watching these, I've launched (only a limited amount yet, but with good success) at 40-60nm.

[Dannyvandelft]

Do you remember at what range you fired? 
 
I am still trying to figure out how to use them proper.

I want to say 60-70nm.

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[Dannyvandelft]

Yesterday I fired at target size small settings, missile went active 6-8 seconds out.
Today I fired at target size normal and it went active 18-16 seconds out so small is definitely the mode to be in at maneuverable targets.
The MiG-21 started evasive maneuvers the second it went active at 18 seconds giving it 10 more seconds to evade the missile

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[Rinz1er]

34 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Yesterday I fired at target size small settings, missile went active 6-8 seconds out.
Today I fired at target size normal and it went active 18-16 seconds out so small is definitely the mode to be in at maneuverable targets.
The MiG-21 started evasive maneuvers the second it went active at 18 seconds giving it 10 more seconds to evade the missile

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How do you know the missile is going active at those times? And also, what missile are you using?

Edited February 5, 2023 by Rinz1er

[Dannyvandelft]

How do you know the missile is going active at those times? And also, what missile are you using?

If you look at the radar repeater below your VDI, you'll see the countdown before your missile reaches the target. When that starts blinking the missile is active.
I was using the AIM-54C.

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@IronMike question: online I read the Phoenix rocket motor burns for 27-30 seconds, but if I follow the weapon in F6 it only seems to burn for 9 seconds or so?

Nvm was a graphics setting that caused it.

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[The_Tau]

12 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

If you look at the radar repeater below your VDI, you'll see the countdown before your missile reaches the target. When that starts blinking the missile is active.
I was using the AIM-54C.

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@IronMike question: online I read the Phoenix rocket motor burns for 27-30 seconds, but if I follow the weapon in F6 it only seems to burn for 9 seconds or so?

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In DCS that TTI blinking light its not 100% accurate of when missile goes active (aim54 C variant - A variant is works much closer like in RL). Also depends what target you shoot at. VS AI, bandit will know the missile is coming at him at 10nm no matter the position of target size. Its hard coded by ED in AI logic. 

VS people someone did tests and it also came out that no matter the position of target size the C variant of 54 will alert bandit RWR at 7ish NM.

mk 60 motor burns for 20s and mk 47 motor burns 27 s. Its accurate, so I am not sure how you got 9s

[Dannyvandelft]

In DCS that TTI blinking light its not 100% accurate of when missile goes active (aim54 C variant - A variant is works much closer like in RL). Also depends what target you shoot at. VS AI, bandit will know the missile is coming at him at 10nm no matter the position of target size. Its hard coded by ED in AI logic. 
VS people someone did tests and it also came out that no matter the position of target size the C variant of 54 will alert bandit RWR at 7ish NM.
mk 60 motor burns for 20s and mk 47 motor burns 27 s. Its accurate, so I am not sure how you got 9s

I watched the AI react to my missiles going active. They were coming straight at me, and didn't start evading until the missile went active. 6-8 seconds with small target settings, 16-18 seconds with normal settings.

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[Dannyvandelft]

Just did a quick check and the 54A-Mk47 seems to burn around 21-23 seconds for me. Definitely not 27, unless you count it from the moment it drops from the plane.

I'll have to check, I watched the AIM-54C-Mk60.

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[Dannyvandelft]

Please check them all. I only really use the Mk47's myself.

Just checked all 4, flame went out, but heard the motor still firing, was a graphics setting on my end.

Go figure

Retested all 4, saw around 20 sec burn times.

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[Dannyvandelft]

This is interesting. What graphics setting was it? Also, all having 20s would be wrong.

Tesselation. Yeah I counted roughly. Didn't time it exactly, but I saw double the time just by changing graphics settings. Did a quick ME test against 4 IL-76 and they all reached their targets so I'm sure it's fine.

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[Machalot]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:35 AM, Dannyvandelft said:

Just checked all 4, flame went out, but heard the motor still firing, was a graphics setting on my end.

Go figure

Retested all 4, saw around 20 sec burn times.

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New, highly advanced, smokeless, flameless propellant. 

[Harlikwin]

On 1/31/2023 at 1:00 PM, turkeydriver said:

 Most of the Iraqi targets did not have any RWR or only rudimentary.   No one in the world had experience against an active radar missile during the Iran-Iraq War.  You fly against AI in DCS that incorporates tactics against active radar missiles.  It is that simple.  If we could set AI by training depth and calendar year instead of "novice" and "ace" you would have the results you are looking for.  An Iranian tomcat against a MiG-23S in 1979 vice against a Su-27 in 1998 are very different scenarios.

Spo-10 only worked from 1-8ghz... pretty sure both the AWG9 and Phoenix were higher. 

Also is the 52nm or whatever it is TWS launch limitation modeled now? 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Harlikwin

[turkeydriver]

On 2/12/2023 at 6:18 PM, Harlikwin said:

Spo-10 only worked from 1-8ghz... pretty sure both the AWG9 and Phoenix were higher. 

Also is the 52nm or whatever it is TWS launch limitation modeled now? 

 

It should be more like 78nm for TWS

[TomcatFan1976]

These Phoenix's are so frustrating. They hit like 1 out 6 shots if I'm lucky. Makes me not want to fly the plane anymore when i use to fly everyday. I think if the missiles performed in real life like they do in DCS, the Navy would've told Grumman to pound sand and not buy the F-14. Why waste a half a mill per missile if they can't hit anything....and here we go with the it's just you, you don't know what you're doing and so on replies

[Biggus]

1 hour ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

These Phoenix's are so frustrating. They hit like 1 out 6 shots if I'm lucky. Makes me not want to fly the plane anymore when i use to fly everyday. I think if the missiles performed in real life like they do in DCS, the Navy would've told Grumman to pound sand and not buy the F-14. Why waste a half a mill per missile if they can't hit anything....and here we go with the it's just you, you don't know what you're doing and so on replies

So you're hitting with 17% of your missiles and you seem to be under the impression that this is as good as it gets in DCS right now, but at the same time you don't seem receptive to advice on how to improve your odds from people who are enjoying vastly greater success.  Because as far as you're concerned, you know what you're doing.

So much of this forty one page thread is people who supposedly knew what they were doing finding out that they, in fact, did not know what they were doing after all.

[draconus]

5 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

....and here we go with the it's just you, you don't know what you're doing and so on replies.

No need to since you already know that and yet you decided to rant.

Question for you: Do you get hit by every missile shot at you?

[Karon]

6 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

These Phoenix's are so frustrating. They hit like 1 out 6 shots if I'm lucky. Makes me not want to fly the plane anymore when i use to fly everyday. I think if the missiles performed in real life like they do in DCS, the Navy would've told Grumman to pound sand and not buy the F-14. Why waste a half a mill per missile if they can't hit anything....and here we go with the it's just you, you don't know what you're doing and so on replies

Do you have TacView tracks to share? So, far the vast majority of players complaining failed to provide any track. Which is… interesting when you think about it.

[draconus]

38 minutes ago, Karon said:

Do you have TacView tracks to share? So, far the vast majority of players complaining failed to provide any track. Which is… interesting when you think about it.

Those who use TacView are usually the ones who put it to good use: analyse, take notes and consequently get better.

[BubiHUN]

8 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

These Phoenix's are so frustrating. They hit like 1 out 6 shots if I'm lucky. Makes me not want to fly the plane anymore when i use to fly everyday. I think if the missiles performed in real life like they do in DCS, the Navy would've told Grumman to pound sand and not buy the F-14. Why waste a half a mill per missile if they can't hit anything....and here we go with the it's just you, you don't know what you're doing and so on replies

nah man there is a really good tactic to launch them and shoot down every AI with a very good hit rate.
1.Get up to at least 30k,

2.go to TWS AUTO, when your opponents are at 90-80 miles from you, engage AB go above 1 Mach,

3.launch at 60 miles for the first launch, and pull up your jet to about 25 degress than launch. 
4.Then (before launching DCS) download my Walkman mod, press LShift+M and start banging your head on the way back to the carrier.
If you worry about the fuel, learn how to AAR, just fully sweep the wings back before plugging in the thing into the Drogue.

F-14 is still capable, and keep that in mind the AI now are almost cheating when deafeting missiles. You know the meme about the missiles, "The missile know where it is and know where it isn't."? 
Same goes for the AI. 
F-14 is still very good, just need to do a little more management bro. 

EDIT:
If you are having enemies at about 1-15 miles from you, just go for PAL mode, lift the ACM cover and launch your real fast huge missile at them in pitbull mode and laugh at them.
Also don't forget to use the CMk47. Even players really like to hold them with their foreheads.

5. Thank me later
 

Edited February 26, 2023 by BubiHUN

[Karon]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Those who use TacView are usually the ones who put it to good use: analyse, take notes and consequently get better.

And that's precisely where I was going. You can't complain and rule out that you are doing something wrong if you do not use the tools that serve this purpose. Or, at least, provide the tracks to others, so they can help you.

@TomcatFan1976 have a look here. This was a bit rushed, and it's very basic. It's much more complex than that, often, but at least there are some numbers inside:

 

[Dannyvandelft]

These Phoenix's are so frustrating. They hit like 1 out 6 shots if I'm lucky. Makes me not want to fly the plane anymore when i use to fly everyday. I think if the missiles performed in real life like they do in DCS, the Navy would've told Grumman to pound sand and not buy the F-14. Why waste a half a mill per missile if they can't hit anything....and here we go with the it's just you, you don't know what you're doing and so on replies

Well, it IS you. Just like it was me. I had the same issues, and then I started to practice specifically on how I launch them. I followed my missiles in F6 view, and looked at what happened to the ones that missed. I started launching in much better parameters, like high altitude and speed, 10-15 degree nose up, etc. And the hit ratio went well up. And the ones that missed, missed barely because the enemy notched them for instance. You're never going to get 100% but my hit ratio went from 1 or none out of 4, to 3 out of 4 regularly, and occasionally 4 out of 4.

Coincidentally this helps your Sparrow game too.

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