DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[RustBelt]

13 hours ago, Timo Niemelä said:

God I love the metric system...

Yea? How many Kilometers in one minute of Latitude? Nice round number? 

[WarthogOsl]

19 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

 

Thanks for the video!

I know Snort caught a lot of flak for his embellished stories and unorthodox methods, but Puck makes it sound like it was the norm for F-14A pilots. At about 37:20 in the video, he starts talking about all the "cheating" they would do.

There was a lot of talk of pulling circuit breakers and such, but he also mentions always keeping the wings at 20 degrees.

FWIW, in the majority of pilot interviewed I've heard, they talk about keeping the wings in auto.  I heard an interview where Puck talks about sweeping the wings all the way back to disengage/bug out, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me, since the computer would normally adjust the sweep for the best lift to drag ratio.  Sweeping them all the way back at low speed shouldn't be the best way to accelerate.  I suppose the exception would be if you are completely unloaded (like zero g), the whole time up to Mach 1, which would negate induced drag.   I suppose if you have the altitude that's possible.

[tavarish palkovnik]

After some time to write again something about AIM-54

 

This is only available crosscut view of motor, AIM-54A or AIM-54C I don't know, but actually and later about it, based on my opinion it is not so important.

 

Although picture is very blurred it seems like fuel block (fuel grain) is with cylindrical inner hole and outer backside surface in 1/3 of length is exposed while outer front side is inhibited. This is how it could be where with red lines is marked initial burning surface

 

  

 

Some years ago, I was reading some old soviet document (which unfortunately I can't find anymore) with description of NATO weapons systems, and for AIM-54 it was stated that motor is dual thrust !

This configuration if it is like that, indeed gives two thrust sequences, simply burning surfaces are such 

 

 

 

Here I made some calculation based on this geometry and with estimated characteristics for let's say Mk47

pk AIM-54.pdf

 

 

First half slightly progressive buster stage, second half slightly degressive sustain stage with total working time of 24 seconds. By the way, volume and geometry allow some 170 kg of fuel what is in line with some documents. And for sure, either Mk47 or Mk60, I'm giving to both nearly same weight of fuel.

When about those two, with keeping same geometry and weight and just with changing fuel, keeping same energetic (chemical) properties but just with different burning law, more or less same function form will be in both cases, with slow burning fuel and with a bit faster burning fuel. Total impulse is slightly greater with faster burning fuel, 5% difference

 

 

 

 

I am not claiming anything, just giving my opinion, for me and I believe that, motors of AIM-54 are with dual thrust concept

[GGTharos]

All AIM-54 motors are single thrust.

[tavarish palkovnik]

Until I see geometry of grain which will allow continuous thrust of 15000+ N in time of 20+ seconds, for me all options are on table 

Which source is the most reliable that firmly state singularity of thrust?

[GGTharos]

IRL F-14 weapons manual.  

[tavarish palkovnik]

You didn't help much  but thanks... what is IRL F-14 weapons manual?

By the way, I'm also very interested in history as well and would like to have some answers how ones took from others and opposite. This motor is just one beside others where I can see so much similarity 

[tavarish palkovnik]

....

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by tavarish palkovnik
Removed attachments

[Fliegerkalle]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:02 PM, The_Tau said:

set ignore the tracks of first 2

Hi all , 

How is this done ? Is there a Jester command  available ? Or is this only be possible with switching to the RIO seat ? 
 

thanks in advance for your help ! 
 

greets Fliegerkalle 

[GGTharos]

9 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

You didn't help much  but thanks... what is IRL F-14 weapons manual?

By the way, I'm also very interested in history as well and would like to have some answers how ones took from others and opposite. This motor is just one beside others where I can see so much similarity 

Sorry.  It means the real F-14 weapons manual.  As far as I know, it is not publicly available.   I do not know the history - heatblur probably has more history on this missile than I can find, but I'm not sure that there's a rocket motor development history for this.

 

Now, I don't know if it's single grain or not, but it is constant thrust.

Edited April 24, 2023 by GGTharos

[RaisedByWolves]

13 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

After some time to write again something about AIM-54

 

This is only available crosscut view of motor, AIM-54A or AIM-54C I don't know, but actually and later about it, based on my opinion it is not so important.

 

Although picture is very blurred it seems like fuel block (fuel grain) is with cylindrical inner hole and outer backside surface in 1/3 of length is exposed while outer front side is inhibited. This is how it could be where with red lines is marked initial burning surface

 

  

 

Some years ago, I was reading some old soviet document (which unfortunately I can't find anymore) with description of NATO weapons systems, and for AIM-54 it was stated that motor is dual thrust !

This configuration if it is like that, indeed gives two thrust sequences, simply burning surfaces are such 

 

 

 

Here I made some calculation based on this geometry and with estimated characteristics for let's say Mk47

pk AIM-54.pdf 1.14 MB · 5 downloads

 

 

First half slightly progressive buster stage, second half slightly degressive sustain stage with total working time of 24 seconds. By the way, volume and geometry allow some 170 kg of fuel what is in line with some documents. And for sure, either Mk47 or Mk60, I'm giving to both nearly same weight of fuel.

When about those two, with keeping same geometry and weight and just with changing fuel, keeping same energetic (chemical) properties but just with different burning law, more or less same function form will be in both cases, with slow burning fuel and with a bit faster burning fuel. Total impulse is slightly greater with faster burning fuel, 5% difference

 

 

 

I am not claiming anything, just giving my opinion, for me and I believe that, motors of AIM-54 are with dual thrust concept

 

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Fliegerkalle said:

Is there a Jester command  available ?

No. Only in RIO seat.

https://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#id17

[The_Tau]

8 hours ago, Fliegerkalle said:

Hi all , 

How is this done ? Is there a Jester command  available ? Or is this only be possible with switching to the RIO seat ? 
 

thanks in advance for your help ! 
 

greets Fliegerkalle 

No, there is no Jester command, at best you can STT specific target.

 

So either you have to jump to back seat, hook track you want and press "Next Launch button" 

Or you use mod like this one to get RIO controls in Pilot seat, and you just map it

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3319633/

Also there is option "DO NOT ATTACK" on CAP under TARGET DATA category. It makes AWG9 ignore tracks, and its excellent to simplify AWG9 TWS scan to make it focus on one maybe tops 2 targets. "GND MAP" supposed to give track "Mandatory Attack", but I am not sure it gives track some priority over centroid of radar. So what I do when attacking multiple targets is to set do not attack on other targets with low pk (like they fly at low alt), so that awg9 focuses only on tracking 1 track with high pk (target flying high)

Edited April 24, 2023 by The_Tau

[tavarish palkovnik]

16 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Now, I don't know if it's single grain or not, but it is constant thrust.

 

Sorry @GGTharos if I bother too much but you didn’t fully convince me just with this statement.

 I would need more 

Simply I don’t see this motor as single thrusted, even this only one available crosscut photograph, although blurred, doesn’t implicate single thrust…as per my opinion 

Momentarily 80% dual thrust and 20% on some ultimate single thrust 

Edited April 24, 2023 by tavarish palkovnik

[GGTharos]

I don't have more.  The most reliable information we have says 4000lbs thrust for 27 seconds. 

[Despayre]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:42 AM, tavarish palkovnik said:

<snip>...

Some years ago, I was reading some old soviet document (which unfortunately I can't find anymore) with description of NATO weapons systems, and for AIM-54 it was stated that motor is dual thrust !

<snip>...

 

Just so I'm clear, you're basing your conclusions on your memory of a Soviet era document, that you cannot even prove exists, and you feel that's a more reliable source than the actual weapons manual??

[WarthogOsl]

23 hours ago, Fliegerkalle said:

Hi all , 

How is this done ? Is there a Jester command  available ? Or is this only be possible with switching to the RIO seat ? 

AFAIK, you have to jump into the back seat, select a target on the TID, then on the CAP (the funky button thing with the roller display on the left side panel), select "do not attack."  That should drop it from the automatic firing order queue.

[Machalot]

On 4/23/2023 at 5:42 AM, tavarish palkovnik said:

Although picture is very blurred it seems like fuel block (fuel grain) is with cylindrical inner hole and outer backside surface in 1/3 of length is exposed while outer front side is inhibited.

While I find your speculation interesting, it seems like you are jumping to conclusions about the aft outer surface being exposed.  That would be a highly unusual burnback profile and subject to all kind of structural and aging problems caused by detaching the propellant from the wall and burning a large cantilevered cylinder of propellant while pulling Gs -- especially the risk of fracturing when the cylinder gets thin, which would cause spikes in chamber pressure and send chunks of burning propellant toward the nozzle throat at high speed.  In the photo you could simply be seeing a different insulation material for the aft portion that has the longest heat soak.  I don't even think it's conclusive from the photo that there is a center perforation, it could be an end-burning grain.

In either case, I wouldn't interpret the comment made here about "constant thrust" too literally, I would interpret it as a neutral thrust profile (subject to ignition and burnout transients, and small gradients in surface area and pressure) rather than a designed progressive, regressive, or multi-level profile.  DCS is simplified by defining it as constant thrust in the absence of anything higher fidelity.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Machalot

[IronMike]

Guys, some are here for the gaming, some are here fore the simulation, some are here for a mix of both, and yet others come here because they want to learn more about missiles and it interests them.

Ignoring someone is your choice, which you are free to do, making them feel not welcome however is not a choice and in itself isn't welcome here. Please be so kind and keep that in mind.

@tavarish palkovnik feel free to continue your quest, ofc some will be more open to engage with you, others less, don't take it personal.


Everyone, please remain kind to each other. Thank you.

Edited April 25, 2023 by IronMike

[eatthis]

On 3/20/2023 at 4:07 PM, The_Tau said:

I use those tactics 

 

taRGET size doesnt work with the c?

[draconus]

16 minutes ago, eatthis said:

taRGET size doesnt work with the c?

Yes.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/308085-dcs-f-14-development-update-aim-54-phoenix-improvements-overhaul-guided-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=5042315

Quote

Also, to answer your question: tgt size switch will not matter in the C now anymore, due to how actives are in DCS. This is also why the AI registers the missile going active at 10nm. Whether or not this will be different in the future I do not know. We hope that we will be able to model the guidance - also in relation to PDSTT - more accurately in the future. The A will still offer the benefit of the tgt size switch against players however (but not against AI).

[tavarish palkovnik]

On 4/25/2023 at 8:23 AM, Machalot said:

While I find your speculation interesting, it seems like you are jumping to conclusions about the aft outer surface being exposed.  That would be a highly unusual burnback profile and subject to all kind of structural and aging problems caused by detaching the propellant from the wall and burning a large cantilevered cylinder of propellant while pulling Gs -- especially the risk of fracturing when the cylinder gets thin, which would cause spikes in chamber pressure and send chunks of burning propellant toward the nozzle throat at high speed.  In the photo you could simply be seeing a different insulation material for the aft portion that has the longest heat soak.  I don't even think it's conclusive from the photo that there is a center perforation, it could be an end-burning grain.

In either case, I wouldn't interpret the comment made here about "constant thrust" too literally, I would interpret it as a neutral thrust profile (subject to ignition and burnout transients, and small gradients in surface area and pressure) rather than a designed progressive, regressive, or multi-level profile.  DCS is simplified by defining it as constant thrust in the absence of anything higher fidelity.

 

That is good and constructive communication, highly appreciated.

Fracturing risk is good point and good thinking, however just with example that perhaps it isn’t that much problem as appears to be. Beside many other rockets and their motors let’s just take Grad 122mm rocket for example. Cylindrical tubular grains in length of 895mm, free burning and at the end indeed theoretically in form of very thin cylinders. And it works, under acceleration much higher then what was case with Phoenix, it is in range of max 50G, and plus to that with rotation of 1800rpm, 30 rotations per second, while Phoenix is rolling stabilized.

End burning grain and this motor can not be considered as an option in any case. There can be seen igniter on front side, and of course that eliminates everything else but the fact of existence of inner channel . Beside that, end burning of grain in case of this length and estimated time and thrust would need burning rate of over 30mm/s. It is of course achievable but on pressure rates much higher than what for this motor is considered as real.

In any case, until somehow we manage to get clear and close view on this crosscut, based on which many things can be done, what ever some skeptics thinks about it, let’s say that all is open…at least to me. 
 

@IronMike Thank you for support and civilized approach, much obliged. I will try same, however some I will not tolerate any more because some took steps over the line

 

[Machalot]

1 hour ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

End burning grain and this motor can not be considered as an option in any case. There can be seen igniter on front side, and of course that eliminates everything else but the fact of existence of inner channel . Beside that, end burning of grain in case of this length and estimated time and thrust would need burning rate of over 30mm/s. It is of course achievable but on pressure rates much higher than what for this motor is considered as real.

Very good points here that I did not consider. And I was not aware of other motors that have the cantilevered cylinder grain, which still seems crazy even though it's apparently flight proven. 

[captain_dalan]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:53 AM, The_Tau said:

No, there is no Jester command, at best you can STT specific target.

 

So either you have to jump to back seat, hook track you want and press "Next Launch button" 

Or you use mod like this one to get RIO controls in Pilot seat, and you just map it

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3319633/

Also there is option "DO NOT ATTACK" on CAP under TARGET DATA category. It makes AWG9 ignore tracks, and its excellent to simplify AWG9 TWS scan to make it focus on one maybe tops 2 targets. "GND MAP" supposed to give track "Mandatory Attack", but I am not sure it gives track some priority over centroid of radar. So what I do when attacking multiple targets is to set do not attack on other targets with low pk (like they fly at low alt), so that awg9 focuses only on tracking 1 track with high pk (target flying high)

 

This could be a very useful Jester wheel add-on as well. Say under BVR-TWS options, we can have the number of tracks generated by the AWG-9, and they can never be more then six of them, so there should always be enough room for all. Then once selecting a number, we can have DO NOT ATTACK option or BACK. Would help in saving some time for people that don't like jumping in the back seat or just for "immersion" having your RIO do it. 

[DD_Fenrir]

1 minute ago, captain_dalan said:

This could be a very useful Jester wheel add-on as well. Say under BVR-TWS options, we can have the number of tracks generated by the AWG-9, and they can never be more then six of them, so there should always be enough room for all. Then once selecting a number, we can have DO NOT ATTACK option or BACK. Would help in saving some time for people that don't like jumping in the back seat or just for "immersion" having your RIO do it. 

I'd like the option to tell Jester to DO NOT ATTACK > from the left / from the right/ from the front / from the back > x1 / x2 / x3 etc so that I can then sort & meld either with an AI or a Multiplayer wingman without a human RIO...