w.i.p Flight Model (FM) since [21.09.2022] DCS 2.7.18.30348 Open Beta

[Christopher Scott]

Since the new flight model came in taxiing seems to be behaving very oddly. After releasing the tail wheel and steering using the torque rotor when you stop the helicopter and centre the controls it spins around. Happens whether you keep the tail wheel locked or not. The only way to stop this is to take off and land again!

See track

Spinning on ground.trk

[Swift.]

31 minutes ago, Christopher Scott said:

Since the new flight model came in taxiing seems to be behaving very oddly. After releasing the tail wheel and steering using the torque rotor when you stop the helicopter and centre the controls it spins around. Happens whether you keep the tail wheel locked or not. The only way to stop this is to take off and land again!

See track

Spinning on ground.trk 2.76 MB · 0 downloads

Couple of things:
1. The flat pitch position of the tail rotor corresponds to the pedals being slightly right of centre. So by centring your physical pedals you are actually commanding a left turn

2. The tail wheel will only actually be locked when the light on the tail wheel unlock button goes out. Simply pressing the button on the collective isnt enough to tell you if its locked, even if the EUFD says lock selected. The tail wheel will only actually lock when it is perfectly straight backwards, so either by taxiing forward with enough speed for the DCS ground physics to caster the wheel, or by lifting off so the sprung tail wheel we have in DCS will spring it to the aft position.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Swift.

[Christopher Scott]

Thanks for the explanation Swift.

Behaves exactly as you say

[Raptor9]

On 10/21/2022 at 10:40 AM, Scaley said:

What I was attempting to get at, perhaps badly, was that right now if you are saying the control indicator does not actually indicate the control position then trying to learn what the aircraft does/how the systems work is somewhat difficult.

While it's obviously technically true to say "it's EA/WIP, stuff might be wrong" that's not too helpful to us mere mortals trying to learn to use this thing.

I think I need to explain my original point a different way.

When flight model changes were pushed to Open Beta last month, it included changes of how the main and tail rotors were calculated. This affected the behavior of the aircraft such that pedal positions within the yaw axis resulted in different behavior than what was previously experienced, causing the slight right roll on the ground when the rudder pedal input axis was centered. It was stated by several players that the pedals were adjusted so that the input was offset to the left, with the "zero tail rotor thrust" point now being right of center.

While the apparent behavior did indeed seem to indicate that the control input positions were adjusted, this was not the case. The tail rotor bias to the left was always there, but as the flight model was adjusted, the behavior of the rotor systems changed. The tail rotor's anti-torque effect at a given pedal position observed in the Controls Indicator was different, which resulted in some players (through no fault of their own) mistakenly thinking that the pedals themselves had changed or that the rudder input axis was bugged. Whereas the flight model "under the hood" is what changed, not the controls themselves, nor the Controls Indicator axis positions.

So what I'm saying is that if someone is basing their assessment of how the FMC is functioning on what they observe within the Controls Indicator, their impression of what is happening may not fully account for what happens within the flight model of the helicopter as refinements are made during Early Access. Changes may be made that result in different observations of the Controls Indicator compared to what occurs currently, which is why I said not to take what is happening in that window as fact for how the aircraft performs or behaves. If the DCS AH-64D were to gain/lose stability or maneuverability, it may not come from changes in the FMC inputs (as indicated by the green SAS indicators), it may be from changes to the flight model itself.

My intent wasn't to imply that anyone should just "get good", but rather to temper expectations of what to use as a tool for learning how to fly the aircraft. In the real AH-64D, there is no indicator that shows in real-time what the FMC is doing. Through training, academics, and practical experience, the logic within the box can be learned and correlated to what is happening in the cockpit, provided there are good mentors around that know what is actually happening (senior pilots, especially maintenance test pilots).

[Scaley]

On 10/25/2022 at 6:16 PM, Raptor9 said:

I think I need to explain my original point a different way.

When flight model changes were pushed to Open Beta last month, it included changes of how the main and tail rotors were calculated. This affected the behavior of the aircraft such that pedal positions within the yaw axis resulted in different behavior than what was previously experienced, causing the slight right roll on the ground when the rudder pedal input axis was centered. It was stated by several players that the pedals were adjusted so that the input was offset to the left, with the "zero tail rotor thrust" point now being right of center.

While the apparent behavior did indeed seem to indicate that the control input positions were adjusted, this was not the case. The tail rotor bias to the left was always there, but as the flight model was adjusted, the behavior of the rotor systems changed. The tail rotor's anti-torque effect at a given pedal position observed in the Controls Indicator was different, which resulted in some players (through no fault of their own) mistakenly thinking that the pedals themselves had changed or that the rudder input axis was bugged. Whereas the flight model "under the hood" is what changed, not the controls themselves, nor the Controls Indicator axis positions.

So what I'm saying is that if someone is basing their assessment of how the FMC is functioning on what they observe within the Controls Indicator, their impression of what is happening may not fully account for what happens within the flight model of the helicopter as refinements are made during Early Access. Changes may be made that result in different observations of the Controls Indicator compared to what occurs currently, which is why I said not to take what is happening in that window as fact for how the aircraft performs or behaves. If the DCS AH-64D were to gain/lose stability or maneuverability, it may not come from changes in the FMC inputs (as indicated by the green SAS indicators), it may be from changes to the flight model itself.

My intent wasn't to imply that anyone should just "get good", but rather to temper expectations of what to use as a tool for learning how to fly the aircraft. In the real AH-64D, there is no indicator that shows in real-time what the FMC is doing. Through training, academics, and practical experience, the logic within the box can be learned and correlated to what is happening in the cockpit, provided there are good mentors around that know what is actually happening (senior pilots, especially maintenance test pilots).

Thanks, that makes more sense. There are clearly FM modifications that happen between the controls and the aircraft that won't alter the control indicator, but will alter the way the sim handles. I think I misunderstood you and thought you meant there was a mismatch between the controls and the control indicator, rather than the fact that the control inddicators don't tell the full story about the aircraft dynamics.

[Raptor9]

Admittedly, I'm not exactly a wizard of words, so that doesn't help.

[poochies]

I don't understand when I'm using instant trimming on cyclic and rudder when i put my controls where i want them and hit the trimmer button the green and white boxes overshoot lurching the helicopter and the red x trim is way off from where i wanted it what am i doing wrong? really want to invest in joystick with clutches that hold the stick in position and do away with the trimming altogether 

[Floyd1212]

Try "Central Position Trimming" instead of "Instant Trimming" and see how that works for you.  You have to let go of the joystick and let it return to center before you can move it around again and control the aircraft.

[kgillers3]

In order to avoid large overshoots the technique I’ve adopted is retrimming more often so the magnitude of overshoot is not as large and coordinating between button push and centering control input if it’s cyclic or pedal. 

Hope this helps, good luck, I’m personally not a fan of center position trimming because my technique is bad and it gets me killed 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

ED could have delayed the compounded effect in instant trim a tad longer.

[Dangerzone]

A suggestion to solve all these trimming issues:  Soft Trim

Something I have seen possible on my VKB joystick - is for a 'soft return' to occur. How it works on the joystick when I do a reset is when I click on the reset trim - it starts moving to the trim offset but gradually - it will take x milliseconds to complete. (I might have 2000ms in there for the solution to make it nice and gradual). That way, as it's relocating over a period of 2 seconds - I'm still able to fly as I normally would (by feel / look) - stick and rudders still give input, but as it slowly moves the offset - I slowly naturally adjust the stick myself to fly as I offset the inputs made by the soft return on the trimmer.  (I hope I'm explaining myself correctly but this really needs to be experienced to fell just how well it really works. ). 

Having a similar option within DCS could solve these issues.  Just add a 'soft trim' value where the user can put in the number of milliseconds for trim to occur. As soon as you hit the trim  button - it starts moving the trim offset to the new values - but incrementally - at a speed will be such that it will take x milliseconds to move the trim fully to that new offset - allowing the user to return the stick and rudders to center at the same rate. 

The benefit of this over the current 'return to center' option is that all user inputs are still recognised by the joystick during the trim process. The pilot can still fly and put in minor (or major) inputs as needed and it will be recognised as well. At present one of the issues with return to center trim is that I can hit trim, start to return to center, the helicopter starts rolling - I put in more and more counter-roll and nothing happens, so I have to quickly return to center to get control back, and then quickly counter roll again to try and recover. 

With the above proposed feature - as the trim offset is slowly moving towards the position where I set it up (and as I'm returning the stick to center at the same rate) all my inputs are still detected so any additional control inputs I need to do (from minor adjustments right through to major) are also recognised. 

[Floyd1212]

That would definitely be a welcome option for trimming.

[poochies]

thanks everyone I'll try some of these suggestions . 

 

edit; just tried center trim mode and once i figured out how to get control again it works a lot better for me , thank you again 

Edited October 30, 2022 by poochies

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

5 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

A suggestion to solve all these trimming issues:  Soft Trim

Something I have seen possible on my VKB joystick - is for a 'soft return' to occur. How it works on the joystick when I do a reset is when I click on the reset trim - it starts moving to the trim offset but gradually - it will take x milliseconds to complete. (I might have 2000ms in there for the solution to make it nice and gradual). That way, as it's relocating over a period of 2 seconds - I'm still able to fly as I normally would (by feel / look) - stick and rudders still give input, but as it slowly moves the offset - I slowly naturally adjust the stick myself to fly as I offset the inputs made by the soft return on the trimmer.  (I hope I'm explaining myself correctly but this really needs to be experienced to fell just how well it really works. ). 

Trim in a real helo is instant. But since that can never be replicated in a regular hotas, this would be a welcomed option. By any chance could “soft trim” be done via a separate software such as joytokey? Is the x moving slowly to the new trim position or instantly after a 2 sec delay?

[Dangerzone]

19 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Trim in a real helo is instant. But since that can never be replicated in a regular hotas, this would be a welcomed option. By any chance could “soft trim” be done via a separate software such as joytokey? Is the x moving slowly to the new trim position or instantly after a 2 sec delay?

I couldn't comment about joytokey - I have no experience with it. It it does, that'd be great but honestly - I think this is a feature that would really improve the whole trim experience in DCS, so I'd love to see it considered and implemented by ED instead of everyone having to use yet another mod.

 

The idea is for the x to move slowly to the new trim position - definitely not instantly after a 2 second delay.

It's quite intuitive when I've used it on the VKB stick. As with helicopters you're not flying them, but trying to stop them from crashing anyway  (ie, constantly doing minor inputs) it's quite natural. Thing is, as you fly the helicopter like you normally would - after the 2 seconds of constant minor inputs intuitively - you end up find yourself back 'in the center' of the joystick without even thinking, and without any sudden changes in pitch or roll. It's extremely smooth.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Dangerzone

[River]

I hope people using a keyboard for yaw axis stop posting in helicopter flight model threads. That would be a good start... 

Edited October 30, 2022 by River

[Zap921]

Quick flight in OB 2.8 after some time away from the 64.  I must say that the FM is coming along nicely.  One point to stress was the inability to do quick stops which was non-existent previously.  The aircraft would just not let you bring the nose up to decent angle of attack while dropping collective.  Today was very pleasant coming in to land at about 75kts and a little over 500fpm decent, flared hard at about 50ft while dropping collective, still descending / slowing  and coming to a hover at about 25ft AGL.  Rudder control was very nice and smooth also.  I don't really use Trim since I took the spring out of my Saitek X56 and Saitek pedals.  Keep up the good work ED!

[poochies]

I tried no spring on my x45 and man it was a lot of work , yes very sensitive but had to hold it all the time was a work out , maybe you have friction in your x56 ? 

Edited October 30, 2022 by poochies

[Zap921]

32 minutes ago, poochies said:

I tried no spring on my x45 and man it was a lot of work , yes very sensitive but had to hold it all the time was a work out , maybe you have friction in your x56 ? 

 

Friction is a microfiber towel wrapped around the neck of the joystick.  Helps hold it in position for long legs but doesn't affect precision hovering.  You still have to tweak constantly to fly straight and level but I never flew a helicopter that you didn't constantly adjust.  Can't handle springs, that's so "ain't real" for helicopter.  Sorry for off topic folks, I'm done on that note.

[TZeer]

Been away fro a while due to work, and I noticed a significant improvement in FM, I'm still on the latest 2.7. Like to see the VR performance issue getting fixed before I jump over.

But from what I have noticed.

- It seems a bit more stable
- Easier to decelarate without dropping all lift
 

Looking forward to test any changes done in 2.8.

 

[Hawkeye91]

13 hours ago, TZeer said:

Been away fro a while due to work, and I noticed a significant improvement in FM, I'm still on the latest 2.7. Like to see the VR performance issue getting fixed before I jump over.

But from what I have noticed.

- It seems a bit more stable
- Easier to decelarate without dropping all lift
 

Looking forward to test any changes done in 2.8.

 

I didn't see any notes about FM changes in the 2.8 changelog. Has anyone noticed any FM changes this patch?

[Zap921]

Do believe that one of the ED Team stated that undocumented tweaks are continually happening in the background to all aspects of the 64. Maybe only the more noticeable ones or filed bugs make he list.  I'm not saying that the improvements I noticed came out in 2.8 but that is when I noticed them compared to a month or two ago.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Yeah it does seem to be improving in the background plus users are probably getting better too in the Apache with time.

Update: Did more testing and flying. Dodged a few SAMs at low level with lots of evasive maneuvers and did not crash. Was in control surprisingly, without the controls indicator. Hovering is ok when done with a little forward speed but at 0 knots it's still tricky. Definitely better overall, I'd say (and I am just using a standard on the table warthog hotas). 

Edited November 1, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[dedlike.]

yeh, i just tested the 64, i feel like they havent tuched the SCAS alot this time but the FM behind it seems to be a lot more refined (holding down the trim button and flying it is far less twitchy now ), i think the improvements are only going to get better from here on, sadly the alt hold is still broken

[Dagobert666]

The problem is, if Eagle Dynamics doesn't say exactly what they're touching and changing, then the statement "Apache flies better, worse, or something else after the patch" is entirely subjective.
In many cases, the brain pretends a change even though nothing has changed.
Unless it's something absolutely definite, like the anti-torque change, then the statement, "The bird flies better now," even if it comes from dozens of people, doesn't matter at all.
There are so many psychological effects that distort one's perception. For example the Mandela Effect.

What I'm saying is, it annoys me that Eagle Dynamics keeps the FM changes so secret. Don't get me wrong, I think ED does a great job with the AH64, SERIOUSLY Awesome!!!
But this special communicative deficit just annoys me ^^