Overhead Brake Advice for newbie

[cmbaviator]

Hi guys,

 

i'm trying to train landing the beast but as i fly other module as well like the JF17, M2000C, F16 and i don't want to re learn the landing for each other moduleS, I always do my overhead at 1500ft RA and 350kt even if its not the normal SOP for the F14.

With the F14 i do 350 until the brake then:

 

Idle the throttle + 3 tap on the speedbrake

brake left and  trying to maintain altitude

At 250kt => Gear Down

At 225 => Flaps Down

Trim for 170-180kt

 

At base turn:

Idle throttle

when on Speed AoA, trying to maintain speed until touch down

 

JHowever i dont know when to use to the DLC and I find it hard to slow down the F14 and even maintaining on speed AoA has you need very little thrust

 

Should you put fully extended Aero Brake before the brake until touchdown ?

 

 

 

PS:

 

What is the flight path vector ? because before the brake, i was in level flight but the FPV was showing 5° ??? is the FPV accurate once the gear are down ?

Edited October 13, 2022 by cmbaviator

[draconus]

34 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

I always do my overhead at 1500ft RA and 350kt even if its not the normal SOP for the F14

It might be within SOP depending on the AFB/squad requirements.

In short the shore overhead should be as follow:

approach: 300-400KIAS, wings at 68, level flight, 1200-1500ft AGL

break: throttle idle, air brake fully extended, bank and pull up to 4G (then ease up as necessary) keeping level flight, when crossing 300KIAS - wings auto, 250 - gear down, 225 - flaps down, DLC on

downwind: slowly losing altitude down to around 600ft, trim the aircraft to on-speed AoA, throttle up as needed

base leg: smooth bank, still losing altitude, adding throttle as needed to keep the constant descent

landing: depending on your position you'll have to catch the glideslope of 3 degrees, line up with runway and follow the GS to touch down without flare, still keeping 15 AoA.

FPV is a bit jumpy but pretty accurate. It has to be on the horizon to keep the level flight - cross check with VSI and alitmeter.

[cmbaviator]

33 minutes ago, draconus said:

It might be within SOP depending on the AFB/squad requirements.

In short the shore overhead should be as follow:

approach: 300-400KIAS, wings at 68, level flight, 1200-1500ft AGL

break: throttle idle, air brake fully extended, bank and pull up to 4G (then ease up as necessary) keeping level flight, when crossing 300KIAS - wings auto, 250 - gear down, 225 - flaps down, DLC on

downwind: slowly losing altitude down to around 600ft, trim the aircraft to on-speed AoA, throttle up as needed

base leg: smooth bank, still losing altitude, adding throttle as needed to keep the constant descent

landing: depending on your position you'll have to catch the glideslope of 3 degrees, line up with runway and follow the GS to touch down without flare, still keeping 15 AoA.

FPV is a bit jumpy but pretty accurate. It has to be on the horizon to keep the level flight - cross check with VSI and alitmeter.

Thanks;

 

But as i said i'll start descending at the base turn so that i won't mess up my overhead brake with the other modules.

 

But i need to use full spoiler and DLC now, i was'nt doing that so far

[Reflected]

What @draconus said, except:

flip the wings to auto at 280 only, gear at 250, flaps, DLC at 220 but if you want to go easy on the airframe, drop it at 200 only.

Once abeam at 600 feet AGL, begin a 27 degree bank turn (assuming you're at the correct distance abeam, if not, adjust), at -2-300 fpm. At the 90 increase the descent to -4-500 fpm, then as you roll out you wanna go for -700 fpm.

If you're doing everything right, you don't need to touch the DLC, but it should be out. If needed you can move it to adjust your glidepath, but always use the throttles first.

Also, if you go for the carrier break (over the field) you can approach at 800 AGL too.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Reflected

[cmbaviator]

27 minutes ago, Reflected said:

What @draconus said, except:

flip the wings to auto at 280 only, gear at 250, flaps, DLC at 220 but if you want to go easy on the airframe, drop it at 200 only.

Once abeam at 600 feet AGL, begin a 27 degree bank turn (assuming you're at the correct distance abeam, if not, adjust), at -2-300 fpm. At the 90 increase the descent to -4-500 fpm, then as you roll out you wanna go for -700 fpm.

If you're doing everything right, you don't need to touch the DLC, but it should be out. If needed you can move it to adjust your glidepath, but always use the throttles first.

Also, if you go for the carrier break (over the field) you can approach at 800 AGL too.

 

Thanks but as i said i'll not be doing the F14 overhead brake ie being at 600ft RA before the base turn. all my base turn in DCS will be at 1500ft RA.

 

Why can't you use Wing auto for the entire procedure ? do you really need to be at 68° before the brake ?

[Reflected]

Yes you do. With the wings back the drag coefficient is higher, so for the same AoA increase you get more drag increase.  And that’s what you want.  To slow down. 

[draconus]

8 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

Why can't you use Wing auto for the entire procedure ? do you really need to be at 68° before the brake ?

Well, you can do anything you want, but it won't be optimal or proper way.

[lunaticfringe]

To be clear, with the understanding you admit to having trouble slowing the aircraft down, and skipping the now twice mentioned need for aft sweep at the start of the crosswind leg- you do realize by starting at 1500' on the downwind rather than 800' your net altitude loss required to be at 600' in the base turn is 4.5 times higher (900' v. 200'), thus incurring (roughly) four times as much speed gained in the descent? 

The higher altitude increases your speed gain proportionally, meaning you now have to dump even more speed over the downwind leg to get to "on speed", which in a standard circuit reduces the amount of time to get the airplane trimmed up properly.  

That is to say, because you're choosing not to honor the numbers, you're making the process substantially harder on yourself.  You may not think it, and you may not want to beleive it, but you are.  

[cmbaviator]

9 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

To be clear, with the understanding you admit to having trouble slowing the aircraft down, and skipping the now twice mentioned need for aft sweep at the start of the crosswind leg- you do realize by starting at 1500' on the downwind rather than 800' your net altitude loss required to be at 600' in the base turn is 4.5 times higher (900' v. 200'), thus incurring (roughly) four times as much speed gained in the descent? 

The higher altitude increases your speed gain proportionally, meaning you now have to dump even more speed over the downwind leg to get to "on speed", which in a standard circuit reduces the amount of time to get the airplane trimmed up properly.  

That is to say, because you're choosing not to honor the numbers, you're making the process substantially harder on yourself.  You may not think it, and you may not want to beleive it, but you are.  

As i said, as i fly several :modules, i can't afford to learn the overhead trechnique for each aircraft, it will be PITA, so all my overhead brake will be based on the F16 ie Base turn at 1500ft and you start descending when passing abeam of the runway.

 

My concern is when to use AoB and DLC

[Reflected]

3 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

As i said, as i fly several :modules, i can't afford to learn the overhead trechnique for each aircraft, it will be PITA, so all my overhead brake will be based on the F16 ie Base turn at 1500ft and you start descending when passing abeam of the runway.

 

My concern is when to use AoB and DLC

Sorry, then you’re bound to be doing it wrong. That’s the beauty of flying different aircraft, you need to learn different procedures. Expecting the F-16 procedures to fit the Tomcat which is a very different jet, is never going to work 100%. 

[lunaticfringe]

10 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

As i said, as i fly several :modules, i can't afford to learn the overhead trechnique for each aircraft, it will be PITA, so all my overhead brake will be based on the F16 ie Base turn at 1500ft and you start descending when passing abeam of the runway.

 

My concern is when to use AoB and DLC

So basically your contention is that because learning another aircraft is difficult, you need corrective guidance on how to land the airplane in the wrong configuration with an airframe that lands at roughly 30 knots slower than the one you're used to. 

Airbrake is engaged at the crosswind turn entry.  DLC is engaged once flaps are down and employed as required.  You're flying in contravention to the profile, so YMMV on how much you have to use DLC on the decent to 600'.  If your parameters match at the base turn, you'll use DLC based on glideslope from there.  

There's not much else to say. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[Cab]

58 minutes ago, draconus said:

Well, you can do anything you want, but it won't be optimal or proper way.

And you won't look as good in the break with the wings forward. 

[Cab]

Ultimately if you're not "going to the boat" then do what you want. You're basically simulating a land-based pilot flying a Tomcat. Also, in RL it's common practice for Naval Aviators to fly modified patterns in order to conform with local area rules at airports. And as long as you're not landing on the carrier, AOA at touchdown is not critical, or even necessary.

But you probably want to fully extend the speed brake in the overhead turn and keep it out until touchdown.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Cab

[IronMike]

11 minutes ago, Cab said:

Ultimately if you're not "going to the boat" then do what you want. You're basically simulating a land-based pilot flying a Tomcat. Also, in RL it's common practice for Naval Aviators to fly modified patterns in order to conform with local area rules at airports. And as long as you're not landing on the carrier, AOA at touchdown is not critical, or even necessary.

But you probably want to fully extend the speed brake in the overhead turn and keep it out until touchdown.

 

That is rare, I think. In general the break is designed such that also on land based runways you do not lose proficiency in case 1 procedures, and thus should match as closely a case 1 break and pattern as possible. That ofc does not count much if you would land with a Tomcat at KLAX, but I doubt that was a frequent occurrance.

The AOA is still important on a land based runway though, because you do not flare in a Tomcat in general and landing on speed sets you up for touch down ideally.

Edited October 13, 2022 by IronMike

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

As i said, as i fly several :modules, i can't afford to learn the overhead trechnique for each aircraft, it will be PITA, so all my overhead brake will be based on the F16 ie Base turn at 1500ft and you start descending when passing abeam of the runway.

 

My concern is when to use AoB and DLC

It's not a pita at all, it is the bread and butter of learning to fly different aircraft. Which ofc, one can still refuse to do so, but as others stated, you are setting yourself up for failure. That is the nature of flying different airframes: learning different procedures fitting the aircraft you fly. The more you learn btw, the easier it will be for you to adapt between one and another, so much so that you won't even think about it anymore.

I would start by learning to land the Tomcat straight in on a landbased runway first, then indeed, flying a pattern can be done as wanted (realistic or not), as long as your setup and approach is correct when on final.

Check out the video below:
 

 

[Cab]

1 minute ago, IronMike said:

That is rare, I think. In general the break is designed such that also on land based runways you do not lose proficiency in case 1 procedures, and thus should match as closely a case 1 break and pattern as possible. That ofc does not count much if you would land with a Tomcat at KLAX, but I doubt that was a frequent occurrance.

To be clear I'm talking about non-military (and certainly non-U.S. Naval) airports here. During a cross county flight to those types of airports it is not unusual at all to have to fly a modified pattern if the local rules required it. Sometimes they might even have to fly the dreaded straight-in!

[IronMike]

9 minutes ago, Cab said:

To be clear I'm talking about non-military (and certainly non-U.S. Naval) airports here. During a cross county flight to those types of airports it is not unusual at all to have to fly a modified pattern if the local rules required it. Sometimes they might even have to fly the dreaded straight-in!

Oh yeah, absolutely. Basically they would have to follow airport procedures and even listen to the ATC.

[cmbaviator]

guys, Irl a pilot is only qualifed for one fighter aircraft; you cant be irl be type rated on the F18, F22 and F35. As a dcs pilot and only being able to fly a couple hours per week. You can't master every aircraft unless you are a DCS youtuber and fly DCS several hours per day.

 

You should be able to apply the F16 overhead brake on the F14, the goal is to touch down around 14°

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[Cab]

6 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

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You should be able to apply the F16 overhead brake on the F14, the goal is to touch down around 14°

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Just don't expect that to work at the boat.

Keep your speed brake fully extended.

[IronMike]

20 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

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guys, Irl a pilot is only qualifed for one fighter aircraft; you cant be irl be type rated on the F18, F22 and F35. As a dcs pilot and only being able to fly a couple hours per week. You can't master every aircraft unless you are a DCS youtuber and fly DCS several hours per day.

 

You should be able to apply the F16 overhead brake on the F14, the goal is to touch down around 14°

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IRL many pilots are rated for more than one jet over the course of their careers, but be that how it may, you just cannot apply the F16 overhead break to the F14 one on one. The basics, the principles, yes, but not the particularities.

From all the major differences between modules, trust me, learning the different landing procedures is the least of your worries. It is not much you have to adjust, if you want to do it proper. Other than that, you can slam it down as you want ofc, as long as you dont break it or crash.

We really want to help you, but we cannot advise you to apply which isnt appliccable.

If you want a one glove that fits it all overhead break advice: fly over the runway at 600 feet at 350kts, break half way through the runway recipicle (a 180 to your left or righ), so on your downwind your wing is basically skimming along the runway from your viewpoint when looking over the shoulder and slow down to 250kts during the turn, keeping 600 feet. Slow down to 200 kts during downwind and release gear and flaps, when your wingtip hits the end of the runway, "roll over the porch", that is turn into final while descending, speedbrake out, slow down to landing speed during descent and turn, line up, land.

Edited October 13, 2022 by IronMike

[cmbaviator]

2 minutes ago, IronMike said:

IRL many pilots are rated for more than one jet over the course of their careers, but be that how it may, you just cannot apply the F16 overhead break to the F14 one on one. The basics, the principles, yes, but not the particularities.

From all the major differences between modules, trust me, learning the different landing procedures is the least of your worries. It is not much you have to adjust, if you want to do it proper. Other than that, you can slam it down as you want ofc, as long as you dont break it or crash.

We really want to help you, but we cannot advise you to apply which isnt appliccable.

If you want a one glove that fits it all overhead break advice: fly over the runway at 600 feet, break half way through the runway recipicle, so on your downwind your wing is basically skimming along the runway from your viewpoint when looking over the shoulder. Slow down to 200 kts and release gear and flaps, when you wing hits the end of the runway, "roll over the porch", that is turn into final while descending, speedbrake out, slow down to landing speed during descent and turn, line up, land.

 

Yeah in my video, you can see that i did quite well all thing considered. I'll just the same thing  as 600Ft but with an offset of 900ft lol

[Lykurgus]

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

Yeah in my video, you can see that i did quite well all thing considered. I'll just the same thing  as 600Ft but with an offset of 900ft lol

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

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guys, Irl a pilot is only qualifed for one fighter aircraft; you cant be irl be type rated on the F18, F22 and F35. As a dcs pilot and only being able to fly a couple hours per week. You can't master every aircraft unless you are a DCS youtuber and fly DCS several hours per day.

 

You should be able to apply the F16 overhead brake on the F14, the goal is to touch down around 14°

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If you're just going to do your own thing no matter what anyone else says. Why did you bother to ask for help in the first place?

Most pilots irl especially in the military have multiple certifications for different air frames. Think T6, T38, T45, and so on.   

[RustBelt]

They have multiple certs, but your only current in one at a time. But this it a toy and an airplane still flies like an airplane SO to OP.

 

Air brake the whole pattern. DLC activated in downwind. Throttle to maintain onspeed at altitude.

If you’re going to slam dunk abeam the numbers, DLC full out the whole downwind to Final turn and be ready to get DLC to center and power back in to hit your final sooner than you think you will because Fighters have pretty high wing loading and the drag at onspeed is HIGH. Also expect a LOT of trim correction. You’re trying to lose 1000 feet in 20 seconds without speeding up. 
 

Until you do this like 100 times, it will be ugly but doable. 

The key is where you are and what your energy state is when you roll out on final. Nail that and you're fine.

Except on the boat. You have to do that by the book because unlike a runway, it’s moving. They already figured out the right way to do that. Treat the CAT 1 like gospel.

[jaguara5]

Why isn't victory's case I recovery   document anymore available for download? 

[Rudel_chw]

5 minutes ago, jaguara5 said:

Why isn't victory's case I recovery   document anymore available for download? 

Maybe it’s somewhat obsolete, as three years have passed and the F-14 has been updated .. if you want to check it tough, have a look at the copy I have on my library:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ai6cuX3YQI26hNctgWVBvWl2fOEAkw