cannot reproduce Map and headingtape turn in the wrong direction while turning the helicopter after 2.8

[Schlomo1933]

As Title says...

[BIGNEWY]

include a track replay example please 

[Schlomo1933]

123.trk

 

This happens for me only on Caucasus Map. Hot start, Cold start .... 

On PG Map all works fine.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Schlomo1933

[NineLine]

Sorry it seems to be working here. Could you make sure and disable any mods, custom cockpits and run a repair?

Thanks.

[Schlomo1933]

I don’t use any mods

Anyone else see this problem on Caucasus?

[Schlomo1933]

 

 

Thank u NineLine for your quick response 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Schlomo1933

[Schlomo1933]

My problem is back

But now it is on all Maps!

It looks like the heading changes with pitch up and down…. Like on old Ww2 warbirds. Has anyone an idea . 
 

i have no more mods installed. I have done the repair , but nothing helps.
Heading on the tape and on Abris is delayed and wrong. So Autopilot and route mode is not working . Autopilot make Hugh Snakelike corrections.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Schlomo1933

[Schlomo1933]

Mabe i found something: But i need clarification from someone. 

In engl. Flightmanual its written (Page 159 number 4) : 

(МК – ГПК – ЗК" (Magnetic Heading - Flight gyroscope – Manual Heading) switch. Heading data selector for INU alignment. Flight gyroscope is used by default)

But if i hot- or coldstart the ka-50 the switch is always now in the upper position (magnetic heading). In this position my headingtape and abrismap goes crazy as posted before. If i switch to gyroscope (middleposition) i believe the heading is working correctly. 

 

PLS: can anyone comfirm in which position the heading data selector switch is in cold and hotstart ? 

i fly now the Ka-50 since 9 years and i never touched this switch before and i never had trouble with the heading. 

[bingbean]

This will be something more complicated.  I played mission where everything works fine. I saved the track. Then i play same mission later and the Heading hold don't work. I saved the track. Then I replay the track and everything works normally on both tracks. Today i play the track again an it is broken in both tracks. So it's not a wrong setting. Something bad is happening in the simulation. But is definitely not problem of autopilot, it is problem of delayed HSI or something. Weird thing is it happens to me totally randomly.

Edited November 5, 2022 by bingbean

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

Mabe i found something: But i need clarification from someone. 

In engl. Flightmanual its written (Page 159 number 4) : 

(МК – ГПК – ЗК" (Magnetic Heading - Flight gyroscope – Manual Heading) switch. Heading data selector for INU alignment. Flight gyroscope is used by default)

But if i hot- or coldstart the ka-50 the switch is always now in the upper position (magnetic heading). In this position my headingtape and abrismap goes crazy as posted before. If i switch to gyroscope (middleposition) i believe the heading is working correctly. 

PLS: can anyone comfirm in which position the heading data selector switch is in cold and hotstart ? 

i fly now the Ka-50 since 9 years and i never touched this switch before and i never had trouble with the heading. 

This comment got me curious, so I did some testing to see if I could replicate. I've been flying the Ka-50 since 2009 when it initially released, and I never touched the Heading Data selector switch myself since I'm fairly certain it was never modeled. I flew on the Stable 2.7 and then flew on the Open Beta 2.8, and in both cases the switch defaults to the up position, which selects Magnetic Heading.

For those curious why heading data derived from a gyrocompass is more desirable and accurate than a magnetic compass, you can watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvhooB--P2s. But in a nutshell, acceleration forces affect magnetic compasses in such a way that they will temporarily drift under certain conditions of changes in speed and banking turns (all of which incur acceleration forces on the aircraft). The amount that they will drift is subject to the latitude of your location, the current heading orientation of your aircraft, and the magnitude of your maneuver; and the direction they will drift is determined by the hemisphere (north vs south) within which you are flying.

It appears that this switch functionality does indeed matter now in 2.8, and you will want to set it to the middle position (Gyrocompass) for precise and reliable heading data. I test flew the Ka-50 in Caucasus, Nevada, Persian Gulf, Syria, Normandy, and the Marianas. In the cases of Caucasus, Nevada, Syria, and Normandy, the heading drift was quite noticeable with the switch set to the top (Magnetic Heading) position, but rock solid when set to the middle (Gyrocompass) position. There was a little drift in Persian Gulf, and practically none in Marianas; but while the other maps were higher in latitude, the Persian Gulf was probably a result of it's lower latitude, and even more so in the case of Marianas, which is fairly close to the magnetic equator. (You can even compare the heading tape in the HUD to the backup magnetic compass in the center of the overhead panel)

In two of the instances, upon immediate loading, the magnetic drift didn't occur until I moved the switch to the middle (Gyrocompass) position and then back to the top (Magnetic Compass). I'm not speaking for the Ka-50 devs, since it is the weekend and they are part of a different team, but I personally suspect this feature is still work-in-progress; the bottom line is that placing this switch to the middle position to enable the Gyrocompass to drive your heading data will result in the best heading accuracy and reliability.

[Volk.]

Very interesting Raptor. And cool for finding that. Makes me wonder then if one also needs to fiddle with the Magnetic Variation Panel & Lattitude correction below the AP channels...

Question is (and not to you) why is this not in the patch notes or newsletters? This is also set to MH, even in an air-start. So it's been updated, most-of-the-way, but then not advertised or communicated even to the beta testers. If it's a feature, test it fully and then sell it (i.e. promote the work you've done). At the moment if just looks like a bug that has many players discovering mid-mission that things aren't working and then wasting time trying to figure it out. A bunch of the other bugs also appears to be things that someone has intentionally gone into the BS2 code, so they should know what they've changed and be able to communicate it.

[Schlomo1933]

It’s not the only change that was not documented….

 

the green skval, the 2 second delay, the engines they will suck smoke from inner pylon rockets …. 
all those change came with the first 2.8 patch. But are documented in the 2nd patch. 
 

[Dallas88B]

49 minutes ago, Schlomo1933 said:

It’s not the only change that was not documented….

And gamma settings and cockpit illumination https://forum.dcs.world/topic/311936-readability-and-realism-disappeared/?do=findComment&comment=5082585

 

[Volk.]

3 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

you will want to set it to the middle position (Gyrocompass)

Just had a roughly 40 minute flight, with it set to Gyrocompass, and route mode was keeping my track very well to within 1 degree (no wind). Also the Shkval seemed to be aligned on the ABRIS although I didn't fully check it. Was a cold start, and the magnetic variation & lattitude appeared to be correctly set up as at mission start. So probably only needs the toggle flipped up like you describe.

[Schlomo1933]

@ Volk  pls Tell me how heading tape , Abriss and skhval act for u, iff let the switch in the up position. Can u see the same problems that I mentioned in the first posts ? 
 

 

[Volk.]

I've had the HUD heading tape seem to reverse & similar issues to what you described. This particular flight (with that toggle up), it seemed back to normal (pre 2.8). That said Most of it was straight on one course for an leg, one turn and then I stopped in a hover before I had a disconnect. So Can't fully say I've managed to test it definitely fixes the heading and ABRIS alignment, but seemed normal.

[Schlomo1933]

I will test tomorrow. I really hope switching to gyro will help. This afternoon was all ok. 
but yesterday I also believed that I found the fix…. 
(better trees mod) but it had nothing to do with this issues 

[bingbean]

I can confirm that switching to gyro heading solve problem when magnetic heading does not work. But still don't understand why magnetic heading sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. I run DCS , start new mission, switch at the magnetic position and everything work just fine. Played 5-6 mission and it suddenly stop working, and it even affect previous saved track file from gameplay where it worked correct. So while i played the mission it works, but in track replay it doesn't work and vice versa. 

I just upload a video where i point to ABRIS jumpy map movement in 2.8 compared to 2.7, but then it continue and show problem with delayed HSI, what make problem for heading hold. 

4:54 helicopters end toun to the left and start turning to the right. HSI and map keep moving to the right next 3-4 seconds. 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by bingbean

[Schlomo1933]

Thank you Bingbean! Till now I wasn’t really shure if anyone see the same problem like I do. 
especially after EDs statement: cannot reproduce

i believe this is how it works IRL … if u use magnetic compass instead of gyro , changing pitch while turning, will make the heading lagging. Like on an old ww2 plane with normal compass and no gyros…. 
So u have to stay level 
 

and if it’s working with magnetic compass than this is the bug, and we have it since many years. ‍

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Schlomo1933

[AeriaGloria]

On 11/5/2022 at 1:56 PM, bingbean said:

I can confirm that switching to gyro heading solve problem when magnetic heading does not work. But still don't understand why magnetic heading sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. I run DCS , start new mission, switch at the magnetic position and everything work just fine. Played 5-6 mission and it suddenly stop working, and it even affect previous saved track file from gameplay where it worked correct. So while i played the mission it works, but in track replay it doesn't work and vice versa. 

I just upload a video where i point to ABRIS jumpy map movement in 2.8 compared to 2.7, but then it continue and show problem with delayed HSI, what make problem for heading hold. 

4:54 helicopters end toun to the left and start turning to the right. HSI and map keep moving to the right next 3-4 seconds. 

 

 

The magnetic slaving is useful to update heading if your location hasn’t drastically changed. For example you can keep it in gyro mode; and when it drifts a bit after an hour update it with Mag mode. Most of these types of magnetic compasses have a torque limiter that cuts out magnetic correction above a certian angular speed. For Mi-8/24 this is 0.3 seconds. This way you get no errors in magnetic mode

However now it seems black shark is modeled with magnetic correction, but not a torque limiter. I wonder if in real life a torque limiter was unnecessary with GPS and INS 

EDIT: Apparently western magnetic and gyro compasses torque limiter use an amount of G rather then angular speed. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Schlomo1933]

Will this now reported or did we get an explanation from devs?

[Sindar]

The autopilot only works when the switch is in the middle position (gyrocompass). The "hover" mode also works only with a gyrocompass. But to achieve zero speed when hovering is almost impossible. The helicopter is rocking hard.

 

[Schlomo1933]

@Sindar have you read the posts before ? It was allready mentioned that the INS need to be in gyro compass mode. What i like to get, is a official statement from the devs, to know if its a bug or its a feature thats not listed at the moment and iff its in development.

And hovering is impossible…that is just not true. Ka-50 hovers like a dream. with  or without Autohover. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Schlomo1933

[bingbean]

Any news about this? At least the "cannot reproduce" tag should be removed.

[Hobel]

are there still any anomalies?