concern with general direction of DCS development

[lev-kusanagi]

Dear ED,

I love your sim and it's an important piece of software to me. I don't understand why development is being prioritized of features that further increase CPU frametime and CPU load given that it degrades performance not only in VR, but also for 2D monitor users and exacerbates general desync and warping of multiplayer servers.

I can only imagine there's a large number of users who like DCS for the experience of simulated flying with no interest in multiplayer or competitive play. But I think that DCS in its full glory, at its fully realized potential, involves dozens of humans interacting in a complex battlefield with interplay between different modalities (air to air, air to ground, ground forces), allowing for intelligent work to be done at the levels of strategy, tactics, and ultimately individual skill, resulting in a combination of some futuristic chess-like strategy with the fine motor coordination and spectacle of formula 1.

I have nothing against the simmers (is that what you call the aforementioned group?) I respect them very much. But I think the promised land for DCS lies in this direction, and it requires good performance. I won't harp on why VR is so important and the inevitable future of flight sim (unless you provoke me) but I believe that too is the case.

I know you're working on multithreading. It's just very discouraging to see updates that further hurt performance to add things as relatively trivial, if you will forgive me, as rainbows and weather. As it is, for many of us the DCS experience will be limited to simple training in private servers with small numbers of friends.

Please give us hope that you're moving in the right direction.

With respect,

LK aka Stampede

[Silver_Dragon]

ED core team has working on Vulkan, Multitread, new land engine and other features

[lev-kusanagi]

4 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

ED core team has working on Vulkan, Multitread, new land engine and other features

hi, yeah i know, but what i mean to say is that releasing these updates that further hurt performance seems to indicate that their priorities are not towards performance, or that performance is not that important. if it was , wouldn't they have waited for multithread and /or a refactor and / or vulkan to add them?

[Silver_Dragon]

13 minutes ago, lev-kusanagi said:

hi, yeah i know, but what i mean to say is that releasing these updates that further hurt performance seems to indicate that their priorities are not towards performance, or that performance is not that important. if it was , wouldn't they have waited for multithread and /or a refactor and / or vulkan to add them?

Vulkan, Dx12 and multithread has mayor updates on the core. That will coming on a 3.0, similar to the 2.0 update when ED add Dx11. The 2.8 was a normal path, no a DCS Big change.

 

About 2.8, you can read here:

 

Quote

I know you're working on multithreading. It's just very discouraging to see updates that further hurt performance to add things as relatively trivial, if you will forgive me, as rainbows and weather. As it is, for many of us the DCS experience will be limited to simple training in private servers with small numbers of friends.

Rainbows and Weather was talked by ED from 2021... and a little teaser was show on DCS and Beyond video from early 2022, that is not nothing new. Your intention has add a realistic weather engine with realtime date on the future, but is only a little part of the DCS core working, as AI, Vulkan, Multitread, Dinamic Campaign, and others.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Silver_Dragon

[ColinM9991]

Vulkan and Multithreading aren't a holy grail. What we'll likely gain in FPS, as a result of these, are the FPS we lost over months of updates.

Optimizing DCS requires far more than these two, it requires a change in mindset to prioritize optimization first. Changelog history shows a repeatedly poor pattern of optimizing last, especially when it comes to LODs which have taken years to implement such a minute and simple concept. Not to mention the current problems, such as the ballistic issue, that continue to hinder the experience in DCS.

If there was a genuine care for performance and optimization, those issues and bug reports wouldn't be sitting around for months or years. Phrase it as diplomatically as you want, but this is the reality.

Edited November 6, 2022 by ColinM9991

[PLUTON]

If I understood your request to ED correctly, it is
that they should stop creating useless things like
volumetric clouds, rainbows and all that relates to realism and immersion to devote this to advancing in their updates just for people who think that they measure themselves and only fight with others to the detriment of a beautiful atmosphere?
think of all those who prefer to fly only for the beauty of this simulator,
everyone needs it
I would have liked to wish you a good flight, sir, but I think you would prefer that I wish you a good fight.

[Beirut]

I really enjoy the clouds and the weather. I use DCS as a simple flightsim as much as I use it for a combat flightsim. 

 

I would like to have nuclear weapons, but rainbows will suffice. 

[Joe1978]

Yes..... It´s wonderful to see the work of the developers with the clouds, the rainbow, the quality of the details of the new maps (and those to come)... especially now that DCS goes to 30 Fps or directly gets stuck between frame and frame.

 

 

[lev-kusanagi]

4 hours ago, ColinM9991 said:

Vulkan and Multithreading aren't a holy grail. What we'll likely gain in FPS, as a result of these, are the FPS we lost over months of updates.

Optimizing DCS requires far more than these two, it requires a change in mindset to prioritize optimization first. Changelog history shows a repeatedly poor pattern of optimizing last, especially when it comes to LODs which have taken years to implement such a minute and simple concept. Not to mention the current problems, such as the ballistic issue, that continue to hinder the experience in DCS.

If there was a genuine care for performance and optimization, those issues and bug reports wouldn't be sitting around for months or years. Phrase it as diplomatically as you want, but this is the reality.

 

yeah this is what i mean, it's about the intentions and the priorities that the actions taken so far reveal. the upgrades @Silver_Dragon enumerates sound great but shouldnt performance degrading changes be done after those updates, not before? Do you see what I mean? For some of us , these are game breaking changes.
I wasn't even going to post, i was considering just not flying anymore

4 hours ago, PLUTON said:

If I understood your request to ED correctly, it is
that they should stop creating useless things like
volumetric clouds, rainbows and all that relates to realism and immersion to devote this to advancing in their updates just for people who think that they measure themselves and only fight with others to the detriment of a beautiful atmosphere?
think of all those who prefer to fly only for the beauty of this simulator,
everyone needs it
I would have liked to wish you a good flight, sir, but I think you would prefer that I wish you a good fight.

good lord this is a comment and a half isn't it? i don't measure myself by competition. i like to compete because it's fun and it pushes you to be better. also, if we have these incredible combat machines, it makes sense to use them for combat. i said in my OP that i respect simmers who are there just for beauty and vibes. but to what extent to the detriment of those of us who actually want to fight in these fighting machines?

i'm not saying rainbows and clouds are useless. i'm saying it they are revealed to be too high a priority right now, in my opinion, compared to fixing the already very suboptimal performance of the sim.

if it turns out that i'm alone in this or that i'm just a tiny minority, at least i'll have voiced my opinion before i leave. i don't want to leave but i'm also not going to keep suffering 25 fps in VR on a multiplayer server with an nvidia rtx 4090, it's just not fun.

i sincerely wish you a good vibey sim flight.

Edited November 6, 2022 by lev-kusanagi

[lev-kusanagi]

58 minutes ago, Beirut said:

I really enjoy the clouds and the weather. I use DCS as a simple flightsim as much as I use it for a combat flightsim. 

 

I would like to have nuclear weapons, but rainbows will suffice. 

 maybe i don't belong here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Nevyn]

2 minutes ago, lev-kusanagi said:

i was considering just not flying anymore

Yeah I feel that way quite often, the bad performance is the pits for me, it's the one thing that truly makes me want to throw in the towel and find something else to do.

[JIGGAwest]

This sounds like a larger issue with VR performance, but I am also seeing a dip in 4k. It's been stated that the VR "optimization" didn't make it into this patch. Although, as clarification was offered about the "optimization" it was somewhat re-defined and clarified as not necessarily better. But, maybe it will be better than now and hopefully it will be patched soon and resolve some of the issues you and others are experiencing. 

I have VR, but I mostly fly 4K @120hz with MFD exports. I use a G-sync compatible monitor and have it tuned on the driver level. I have not tried VR with the new update, but the group I fly with mostly uses VR and most have upper end systems. I am hearing feedback that some users experience issues, like specific shadow settings may be locked ON. shadow settings in DCS are a big FPS hit. I usually keep these FLAT, or OFF in most of these options. So, this could be the performance hit.

I've been trying the run the edge of tuning performance for DCS since I joined the sim about two years ago. I currently run a 5900x, 3090ti, and 64gb. Unfortunately, you need a high tier system to get reasonable smooth performance with 4k or VR. I am very sensitive to frame rates, especially in VR. If I am lower than 45fps in VR I get very sick. So, I feel your pain at 25fps. I'm sure you know this but, you might have to sacrifice some detail to get some better frame rates. 

I have seen some performance dip recently for 4k usage, But I am still able to get some smooth performance. There are some variable issues to deal within DCS that are not a consistent experience across the board. Unit counts in multiplayer or single player, Number of static units placed on a map, The specific map itself, Number or players on a multiplayer server, Mods used in a mission, Level of detail with some modules, scripting and activity of units, etc., all effect gameplay performance. 

I have a track I use for benchmarking I emulated from this video below. His system seems to be taking a hit, but still functional. I have not run my benchmark for 2.8 yet, but I am seeing similar loses as this video. 

 

 

[NineLine]

Performance issues are not always as cut and dry as people assume. 

For example, 2.8 Some saw big losses, some saw gains some saw things stay the same. We ask for all the info we can get to try and solve but many times people would rather just say its bad than pass along info that could help. Then the hotfix hits, some people suggest that fixed their performance the issue with that is we had not done anything as we had not identified a specific issue.

There are so many factors to performance, so many outside factors that can cause issues, add VR to the mix and there are even more. So if we do not get info like we ask for in our How to create a bug report FAQ we can only do what we can. The Closed Beta Testers can catch a lot of this stuff, we saw somewhat similar results in that only a couple people saw large drops while others saw it stay the same and a few saw an increase. 

So what can we do when we do not get the info or a bug report, like this one is full of commentary instead of hard data? We continue on with the plan. The plan is to improve the engine not only to add more pretty things but to better support modern computers, to better support large missions, to just be better.

If you are concerned about something in DCS World, my suggestion is to do proper bug reports with all the many factors at play this is our best hope of pinning down issues. If you are concerned about our direction, don't be, we are focused on improving the experience in every aspect, better graphics, better performance, better AI, better products. It will never be as fast and as smooth as you want it but we are committed to making DCS the best it can be.

I am moving this to chit chat as it is not a bug report, but feel free to keep discussing, but please follow the rules, refresh yourself on them if you need to.

Thanks.

[lev-kusanagi]

45 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Performance issues are not always as cut and dry as people assume. 

For example, 2.8 Some saw big losses, some saw gains some saw things stay the same. We ask for all the info we can get to try and solve but many times people would rather just say its bad than pass along info that could help. Then the hotfix hits, some people suggest that fixed their performance the issue with that is we had not done anything as we had not identified a specific issue.

There are so many factors to performance, so many outside factors that can cause issues, add VR to the mix and there are even more. So if we do not get info like we ask for in our How to create a bug report FAQ we can only do what we can. The Closed Beta Testers can catch a lot of this stuff, we saw somewhat similar results in that only a couple people saw large drops while others saw it stay the same and a few saw an increase. 

So what can we do when we do not get the info or a bug report, like this one is full of commentary instead of hard data? We continue on with the plan. The plan is to improve the engine not only to add more pretty things but to better support modern computers, to better support large missions, to just be better.

If you are concerned about something in DCS World, my suggestion is to do proper bug reports with all the many factors at play this is our best hope of pinning down issues. If you are concerned about our direction, don't be, we are focused on improving the experience in every aspect, better graphics, better performance, better AI, better products. It will never be as fast and as smooth as you want it but we are committed to making DCS the best it can be.

I am moving this to chit chat as it is not a bug report, but feel free to keep discussing, but please follow the rules, refresh yourself on them if you need to.

Thanks.

i've been doing proper bug reports and optimizing dcs for years. i'm not the problem. this is a complaint about the apparent direction of dcs' evolution. whether i do a bug report or not doesn't change the fact that DCS is severely cpu bottlenecked seemingly increasingly so, has been for a long time, and that this hasn't, in action not in words, been prioritized.
your beta testers should test well populated multiplayer servers. or maybe you consider that a niche and you should keep doing what you're doing.

do you have a more insulting category to move this to? chit chat seems too dignified

Edited November 6, 2022 by lev-kusanagi

[lev-kusanagi]

46 minutes ago, JIGGAwest said:

This sounds like a larger issue with VR performance, but I am also seeing a dip in 4k. It's been stated that the VR "optimization" didn't make it into this patch. Although, as clarification was offered about the "optimization" it was somewhat re-defined and clarified as not necessarily better. But, maybe it will be better than now and hopefully it will be patched soon and resolve some of the issues you and others are experiencing. 

I have VR, but I mostly fly 4K @120hz with MFD exports. I use a G-sync compatible monitor and have it tuned on the driver level. I have not tried VR with the new update, but the group I fly with mostly uses VR and most have upper end systems. I am hearing feedback that some users experience issues, like specific shadow settings may be locked ON. shadow settings in DCS are a big FPS hit. I usually keep these FLAT, or OFF in most of these options. So, this could be the performance hit.

I've been trying the run the edge of tuning performance for DCS since I joined the sim about two years ago. I currently run a 5900x, 3090ti, and 64gb. Unfortunately, you need a high tier system to get reasonable smooth performance with 4k or VR. I am very sensitive to frame rates, especially in VR. If I am lower than 45fps in VR I get very sick. So, I feel your pain at 25fps. I'm sure you know this but, you might have to sacrifice some detail to get some better frame rates. 

I have seen some performance dip recently for 4k usage, But I am still able to get some smooth performance. There are some variable issues to deal within DCS that are not a consistent experience across the board. Unit counts in multiplayer or single player, Number of static units placed on a map, The specific map itself, Number or players on a multiplayer server, Mods used in a mission, Level of detail with some modules, scripting and activity of units, etc., all effect gameplay performance. 

I have a track I use for benchmarking I emulated from this video below. His system seems to be taking a hit, but still functional. I have not run my benchmark for 2.8 yet, but I am seeing similar loses as this video. 

 

 

thanks for sharing this. strangely after the update i noticed that shadows off tended to have even worse cpu frametime than shadows on flat (though the shadows appeared through objects at that time). i think all the attributes that you listed are especially present and significant in mp environments. Is ismael's test in a multiplayer server or just an empty mission? thank you

52 minutes ago, JIGGAwest said:

This sounds like a larger issue with VR performance, but I am also seeing a dip in 4k. It's been stated that the VR "optimization" didn't make it into this patch. Although, as clarification was offered about the "optimization" it was somewhat re-defined and clarified as not necessarily better. But, maybe it will be better than now and hopefully it will be patched soon and resolve some of the issues you and others are experiencing. 

I have VR, but I mostly fly 4K @120hz with MFD exports. I use a G-sync compatible monitor and have it tuned on the driver level. I have not tried VR with the new update, but the group I fly with mostly uses VR and most have upper end systems. I am hearing feedback that some users experience issues, like specific shadow settings may be locked ON. shadow settings in DCS are a big FPS hit. I usually keep these FLAT, or OFF in most of these options. So, this could be the performance hit.

I've been trying the run the edge of tuning performance for DCS since I joined the sim about two years ago. I currently run a 5900x, 3090ti, and 64gb. Unfortunately, you need a high tier system to get reasonable smooth performance with 4k or VR. I am very sensitive to frame rates, especially in VR. If I am lower than 45fps in VR I get very sick. So, I feel your pain at 25fps. I'm sure you know this but, you might have to sacrifice some detail to get some better frame rates. 

I have seen some performance dip recently for 4k usage, But I am still able to get some smooth performance. There are some variable issues to deal within DCS that are not a consistent experience across the board. Unit counts in multiplayer or single player, Number of static units placed on a map, The specific map itself, Number or players on a multiplayer server, Mods used in a mission, Level of detail with some modules, scripting and activity of units, etc., all effect gameplay performance. 

I have a track I use for benchmarking I emulated from this video below. His system seems to be taking a hit, but still functional. I have not run my benchmark for 2.8 yet, but I am seeing similar loses as this video. 

 

 

i will ask ismael if he's tested on mp servers. i don't live in a bubble i talk to people and i'm not the only one seeing increase cpu frametimes. at some point, the increase of this number punts some of us out of the sim. 

[Silver_Dragon]

20 minutes ago, lev-kusanagi said:

i've been doing proper bug reports and optimizing dcs for years. i'm not the problem. this is a complaint about the apparent direction of dcs' evolution. whether i do a bug report or not doesn't change the fact that DCS is severely cpu bottlenecked, has been for a long time, and that this hasn't, in action not in words, been prioritized.
your beta testers should test well populated multiplayer servers. or maybe you consider that a niche and you should keep doing what you're doing.

do you have a more insulting category to move this to? chit chat seems too dignified

That topic has been talked on the Vulkan API thread... when ED replace the old LOMAC core code and Dx11, the Core and the GFX Engine, we have been stability with Multitread and Vulkan.

[Beirut]

3 hours ago, lev-kusanagi said:

 maybe i don't belong here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sure you do.

 

Grab a plane and have some fun. 

[Rudel_chw]

4 hours ago, lev-kusanagi said:

i don't want to leave but i'm also not going to keep suffering 25 fps in VR on a nvidia rtx 4090, it's just not fun.

 

Maybe you need to adjust your settings a bit, like this guy has:

 

 

[lev-kusanagi]

28 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Sure you do.

 

Grab a plane and have some fun. 

thx beirut i appreciate the sentiment

10 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Maybe you need to adjust your settings a bit, like this guy has:

 

 

no i don't, i get 90fps solid on max settings on reverb g2 in that mission. it's multiplayer that is the problem, like i said. cpu frametimes.

Edited November 6, 2022 by lev-kusanagi

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, lev-kusanagi said:

this is a complaint about the apparent direction of dcs' evolution

Great, but complaints do not go in bug sections hence why it was moved. Thanks

I agree the FPS you are claiming with a 4090 sound really bad, that said without more info we cannot do much with this. 

[JIGGAwest]

3 hours ago, lev-kusanagi said:

thanks for sharing this. strangely after the update i noticed that shadows off tended to have even worse cpu frametime than shadows on flat (though the shadows appeared through objects at that time). i think all the attributes that you listed are especially present and significant in mp environments. Is ismael's test in a multiplayer server or just an empty mission? thank you

i will ask ismael if he's tested on mp servers. i don't live in a bubble i talk to people and i'm not the only one seeing increase cpu frametimes. at some point, the increase of this number punts some of us out of the sim. 

I just tested my my setup - 

HP Reverb G2V2 - SteamVR / Windows MR,  F18 (40-45fps), Apache 35-45

(5900x, 3090ti, 64GB ram, DCS on m.2,pagefile on fastest M.2 (let windows set)WIN10)

- 2.7 I was getting 45-60 with the attached settings.

No SteamVR home - OFF

WMR - places ( "Empty Room")

No SteamVR mirror

No WMR mirror

maybe duplicating some of this will give you an improvement?

[Mars Exulte]

Oh, look! A concern thread! I love these. *taste* It's raaaaaw and terribly bland, you didn't even add any salt! 3/10

[SkateZilla]

8 hours ago, ColinM9991 said:

Vulkan and Multithreading aren't a holy grail. What we'll likely gain in FPS, as a result of these, are the FPS we lost over months of updates.

Optimizing DCS requires far more than these two, it requires a change in mindset to prioritize optimization first. Changelog history shows a repeatedly poor pattern of optimizing last, especially when it comes to LODs which have taken years to implement such a minute and simple concept. Not to mention the current problems, such as the ballistic issue, that continue to hinder the experience in DCS.

If there was a genuine care for performance and optimization, those issues and bug reports wouldn't be sitting around for months or years. Phrase it as diplomatically as you want, but this is the reality.

 

I don't think you guys understand the correlation between higher Object/Poly Counts in a Scene and it's effect it has on DX11, nor the scripting or core of the sim being single threaded.

Moving away from DX11 and ST will change everything in terms of Scene Size Limits, as well as AI and Physics Limits,

The FPS you get back, will likely be more than anything you lost in the updates, as you will have 2 major bottlenecks removed from the sim.

The Team working on MT and the Team working on Vulkan are separate from the teams working on modules, terrains, environment engines, weather engines, Dynamic Campaign Engines etc.

It doesnt make business sense to tell them all to sit around and wait for MT and Vulkan before they start integrating anything.

The weather and clouds in 2.8 might seem like just graphics, but it's not, what you see is just a fraction of what the weather engine does.

[lev-kusanagi]

it's time for your quarterly cpu frametime optimization and hardware upgrade, darling

another idea would be to have two builds. E-Sports games do this, one build for competitive, one build for consumer. Liberate yourself from constraints. Competitive version is a lean mean performance and precision machine. Consumer version has rainbows @NineLineis this a phenomenal idea?

 

[Mars Exulte]

31 minutes ago, lev-kusanagi said:

 is this a phenomenal idea?

Well, it's completely detached from reality, so having a smoking fox gif is pretty appropriate.