Developer updates MSFS style?

[Solemn-laugh]

A suggestion for @NineLine (given how often you have to field comments about the age/state of the code in DCS (particularly for us VR diehards)).

How about persuading ED to give us a look over their shoulder wrt the performance-enhancing work (and more) that's going on in the background?

A video / series of videos perhaps, with insight into where ED are with, say, the multithreading beta? Why we're looking at multi-threading first, before python, etc. I'm sure a lot of us would find this fascinating and reassuring – particularly if presented by (or from the POV of) the developers.

I love DCS with a passion (that word again ) but am nervous that my 22 fps with my high-end PC (well, overclocked 3090) won't improve (and that's with shadows off) and that VR is falling a bit by the wayside (see clouds for details).

I'm saying this as a big DCS fan. I have enormous respect for all that DCS have achieved and I understand the challenges are not trivial. But a feeling of being closer to it all will (imho) go a long way to placating the user base  – just as it does with MSFS.

That said, thanks for all you're doing on the forum and elsewhere.

 

[St4rgun]

Let me reply quick: N O P E.

They don't care about anyone trying to get information about actual development status. We tried to ask for it in the last year in polite and even funny styles.

Nothing changed since then. The only answer is "we currently have no new information to share, thanks."

To have MSFS-style development plan for the upcoming months with strict timeframes.... In your dreams maybe.

The whole multicore / Vulkan development was PLANNED to be released by Q3 2021(!) originally, at least according to their published plan at January 2021. Then the date passed and the community just got a "Multicore development report" which is still unprecendented since then.

More than one whole year passed since the last somehow detailed report it total radio silence.

What we know right now for sure:

1. The multicore development will forego the Vulkan implementation, but no info about how much.
2. The multicore is in closed beta testing status currently, but no info about the estimated length of that phase.

The community managers seems to be tired of asking them about this whole topic again and again so I personally won't count on any answer from them.

I'm pretty sure tho, that as long as there'll be real new info, they'll share. Maybe in weeks. Or months. Or years. Maybe never, we don't know.

 

[LooseSeal]

The Newsletters this year have been a little underwhelming... I know I'm going to get eaten alive by some people on here for saying that. But I'm sure it's not just me.

I was really hoping for some more insight into what's going on behind the scenes - I don't think we need anything like the structure mentioned above. No dates, plans or anything like that. I don't think we need 'videos' or 'dev diaries' like other games companies do. Just a little more insight into the process every few months, or even every 6 months. It might even help with some of the (mostly unfair) criticism ED sometimes gets.

Here's hoping the New Year's Newsletter has some good news for us.

[St4rgun]

6 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

Just a little more insight into the process every few months, or even every 6 months. It might even help with some of the (mostly unfair) criticism ED sometimes gets.

We asked for it countless times with really polite reasoning.

Personally I became to this simple conclusion: they'll do their job in their own pace, which is perfectly fine. And if they decide not to say a single word on the status of some development it's also their decision. Even if we don't agree, THEY DON'T CARE, period. For some reason this became their policy on core development.

In the last months the newsletters are rather disappointing for me also. The interesting trend is that the lack of news about the development of the core (mc and Vulkan) comes hand in hand with more often SALES. Right now we're going from one sales to another at pretty high discounts, which should be good for the customers but for me it rather hides something behind the scenes.

The new clouds are deployed long time ago with the most serious bugs eliminated in the first half a year.

I really like the visuals of the clouds in VR right now, if they are fine. But there're some distant layered clouds where the quality drops to about 10% because of the really heavy aliasing and shimmering. This issue is still unsolved for several months now, and we don't get a single response from ED that the developers are working on some kind of solution. Probably they won't allocate resources to solve this in the current graphic engine when mc / Vulkan in on the way where they'll implement the proper solution. The problem is we don't know if it's even true. Because of the silence.

[Solemn-laugh]

Fair points made above. It's easy to point to the negatives (I do so myself) but to add to what @St4rgunsaid the new iteration of the clouds is stunning (where they're not broken/shimmering).  I prefer them to the clouds in MSFS (which were impressive when they arrived). 

Here's hoping ED have news they can't wait to share soon.

[Mallevolent]

Have they showed anything from the Vulkan implementation?
Not saying that the sky is falling but if it was planned for Q3 2021 and we haven't seen anything from it, that just makes me a bit scared of the future.
Because we're getting more and more detailed models in the game, and the VR experience screams for better performance from the game engine.

[razo+r]

4 minutes ago, Mallevolent said:

Have they showed anything from the Vulkan implementation?
Not saying that the sky is falling but if it was planned for Q3 2021 and we haven't seen anything from it, that just makes me a bit scared of the future.
Because we're getting more and more detailed models in the game, and the VR experience screams for better performance from the game engine.

Delays are pretty normal for DCS, get used to it.

[draconus]

The core is in the works all the time and also in newsletters: clouds and weather, lighting, AI, new 3D models, ME... this is all core. What do you expect to see in MC/Vulkan progress? It's pure coding work - you won't see it even when it's done - you can only count fps.

[MadKreator]

You know, it would be kind of nice to have official polls/ lists, like the other sim, of bugs, wishlists, features etc, that people could vote on with statuses of them updated by ED. Kind of like the old hornet posts of which features people most wanted worked on. It’ll never please everyone but better than being left in the dark, or awaiting things anxiously only to be disappointed week after week. I know dev time moves slowly and we get what we get, but I think a lot of what most people want is communication or at least acknowledgment of things that are asked about, or especially bugs and fixes that have been needed for literally years in some cases( looking at you wingman, just shut up and eject, your near bingo anyway lol)  I do love DCS and play almost daily but by now my wing men should at least be able to respond to comms correctly, or not crash into the back of the carrier one after the other, or eject when you hit bingo even if you’re on final  Sometimes I question the logic in the development of DCS. So many little bugs and features that get left behind for months, years on every module. People scream for features/ fixes for years to have them function correctly, and we get clouds… yes they’re pretty.

I agree with OP

-polls

-lists of things in process

-wishlists that get read and considered 

-communication

Edited November 30, 2022 by MadKreator

[draconus]

3 hours ago, MadKreator said:

People scream for features/ fixes for years to have them function correctly, and we get clouds… yes they’re pretty.

Guess what people screamed for before 2.7?

...

Yes, that's right

 

They do polls - I remember F-18 and F-16.

They do roadmaps - for modules like F-18, F-16, AH-64... or DCS in newsletters, forums or interviews.

If you look at the wishlist long enough you start to see a lot of new modules and features actually get added.

Comms - forums, newsletters, discord, facebook, twitter...

Still not enough?

Public bug tracker needs people and money. Frequent roadmap does not make sense in DCS fluid development.

Don't get me wrong, I wish all the bugs squashed and all features added but I'm realistic and prefer to actually play the game instead of waiting and hoping for things.

[MadKreator]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

Guess what people screamed for before 2.7?

...

Yes, that's right

 

They do polls - I remember F-18 and F-16.

They do roadmaps - for modules like F-18, F-16, AH-64... or DCS in newsletters, forums or interviews.

If you look at the wishlist long enough you start to see a lot of new modules and features actually get added.

Comms - forums, newsletters, discord, facebook, twitter...

Still not enough?

Public bug tracker needs people and money. Frequent roadmap does not make sense in DCS fluid development.

Don't get me wrong, I wish all the bugs squashed and all features added but I'm realistic and prefer to actually play the game instead of waiting and hoping for things.

Oh yes they do it all their way, which is just fine. They are the ones that bring us this awesomeness, and they 100% update the sim and keep it going far better than pretty much other developer.

As for solely agreeing with the OP’s post, the other sim’s way of showing updates/progress/wants/wishes/ what’s being worked on is in a much less convoluted format. Thats more so what I was trying to get at. Its easy to see, all in one place, nice easy lists, from the developers. Not just in a forum page, or hundreds, with everyone’s random ideas. None of which anyone really knows  if the devs see, write down or take to heart in any way.  Communication spread out over multiple platforms, kind of a mess.. but nonetheless, I’m with you. I love DCS and no matter what I, or anyone thinks should be done differently, it’s not going to stop me from playing and having a good time 

[Hog_driver]

Oh, and what about Modern Air Combat? Is it out yet?

[SharpeXB]

On 11/15/2022 at 5:21 AM, Solemn-laugh said:

A suggestion for @NineLine (given how often you have to field comments about the age/state of the code in DCS (particularly for us VR diehards)).

How about persuading ED to give us a look over their shoulder wrt the performance-enhancing work (and more) that's going on in the background?

A video / series of videos perhaps, with insight into where ED are with, say, the multithreading beta? Why we're looking at multi-threading first, before python, etc. I'm sure a lot of us would find this fascinating and reassuring – particularly if presented by (or from the POV of) the developers.

I love DCS with a passion (that word again ) but am nervous that my 22 fps with my high-end PC (well, overclocked 3090) won't improve (and that's with shadows off) and that VR is falling a bit by the wayside (see clouds for details).

I'm saying this as a big DCS fan. I have enormous respect for all that DCS have achieved and I understand the challenges are not trivial. But a feeling of being closer to it all will (imho) go a long way to placating the user base  – just as it does with MSFS.

That said, thanks for all you're doing on the forum and elsewhere.

 

You’re comparing ED to a giant developer with almost unlimited resources. For ED to produce these sort of updates would simply drain resources that could be used to actually get work done. Adding even more time to complete these things. 

[Tippis]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re comparing ED to a giant developer with almost unlimited resources.

250 people is not “almost unlimited resources”.

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, Tippis said:

250 people is not “almost unlimited resources”.

No the other giant company that makes MSFS which puts out those elaborate development videos. ED is not that. 

[Tippis]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No the other giant company that makes MSFS

You need to look up who the developer of MSFS actually is.

250 people doesn't qualify as “giant” either.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Tippis said:

You need to look up who the developer of MSFS actually is.

Yeah but again that game has vastly more resources at it’s disposal than DCS. And it’s a much more popular game. Making those kind of development updates for this sim would be counterproductive. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but

But nothing.

You have to spend money to make money, and ED's being a bit smaller than a company that juggles the continued maintenance of one game while having 2–3 others in active development at the same doesn't mean they're somehow automatically incapable of keeping the information hungry customer base involved and engaged. Game companies an order of magnitude smaller still manage to create splashy development update because 1) it's not actually that hard, and 2) it's worth it.

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Making those kind of development updates for this sim would be counterproductive. 

Not really, no. Heading off by far the largest source of complaints against the company and their product would be among the most productive and efficient things they could do.

It might not be for that imaginary “infinite resource” company you dreamed up, but that hypothetical construct is hardly relevant here, now is it?

Edited November 30, 2022 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

14 minutes ago, Tippis said:

But nothing.

You have to spend money to make money, and ED's being a bit smaller than a company that juggles the continued maintenance of one game while having 2–3 others in active development at the same doesn't mean they're somehow automatically incapable of keeping the information hungry customer base involved and engaged. Game companies an order of magnitude smaller still manage to create splashy development update because 1) it's not actually that hard, and 2) it's worth it.

Not really, no. Heading off by far the largest source of complaints against the company and their product would be among the most productive and efficient things they could do.

It might not be for that imaginary “infinite resource” company you dreamed up, but that hypothetical construct is hardly relevant here, now is it?

 

You’ve been around here long enough to know that asking “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” Is not going to get the work done any faster. And the answer you’ll get from ED is that it will be ready when it’s ready. 
Besides I don’t think too many of us want to know about Vulkan or Multithread coding in detail

[Hammer1-1]

Last time ED went down the road of informing everyone where they were in development went poorly. Cant satisfy the forum whores here, so why bother. Lot of ppl here know how to ruin it for everyone else and so thats why we dont get them anymore. Be thankful you get what you get.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[Tippis]

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You’ve been around here long enough to know that asking “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” “Are we there yet?” Is not going to get the work done any faster.

And the only one who has even remotely suggesting anything that nonsensical is you.

I've been around here long enough to know that this particular kind of laughably silly strawman argument is your default fallback when you don't even have the slightest shred of an a actual, coherent, cohesive, and sensible argument and instead just must be contrarian at all cost whenever anyone suggests an improvement.

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And the answer you’ll get from ED is that it will be ready when it’s ready.

But… and see if you can follow along with this very complicated logic here… you would get an answer. Which is actually what the OP is asking for. Not only could you get an answer, but one better: you could get an explanation, which would be help immensely with reducing the workload and the repeated questions and giving ED more time to actually move the ball forward.

Information and communication is incredibly cheap and massively efficient.

Your position is essentially that ED should be wasteful, and you're trying to make the mindbogglingly incoherent argument that this would be a good use of everyone's time and resources.

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Besides I don’t think too many of us want to know about Vulkan or Multithread coding in detail

What you think and what is actually the case is a venn diagram consisting of two circles situated at the opposing ends of the universe.

But more to the point, no-one would ask for that detail other than the ones who don't need it… and they wouldn't ask for it for that very reason. Everyone else would simply be engaged — a very valuable trait that is very easy to acquire and maintain.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Tippis said:

But… and see if you can follow along with this very complicated logic here… you would get an answer.

And that answer is going to be that it will be ready when it’s ready. And frankly having ED create elaborate development videos will only delay things. And get them in trouble with their rabid fan base. 
 

IMO If you want to be happy in DCS just enjoy the game for what it is now and stop worrying about the future. 

[Tippis]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And that answer is going to be that it will be ready when it’s ready

No it wouldn't. Because that's not the question being asked. Quite simple, really.

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And frankly having ED create elaborate development videos will only delay things.

Nope. That's not how development actually works. Or making videos. And if it does, then ED needs to fix whatever organisational pathologies they're suffering from anyway — their reticence towards communication being forcibly solved is just a bonus.

Above all, it would let them get a grip on the hype-disappointment cycle that has historically and consistency created the most rabid reactions form the fans.

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

IMO If you want to be happy in DCS just enjoy the game for what it is now and stop worrying about the future. 

You must be absolutely miserable with DCS if that's your approach, then, given how worried you are about anything suggested about the future.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Nope. That's not how development actually works.

We live in a world of limited resources. Everything has a cost.

6 minutes ago, Tippis said:

their reticence towards communication

You know they have to be tight-lipped around here due to the rabid insatiable nature of their customers

Saying anything specific just gets them in trouble. So I can’t fathom them making development videos. 

[Tippis]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

We live in a world of limited resources. Everything has a cost.

Not the one you're imagining.

Also, this is rich coming from someone who tried to use some imaginary company with infinite resources as a counter-argument not that many posts back.

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You know they have to be tight-lipped around here due to the rabid insatiable nature of their customers

Saying anything specific just gets them in trouble. So I can’t fathom them making development videos. 

I really don't. Quite the opposite.

What gets them into trouble isn't that they're being specific — it's that they're skimping on details and not explaining themselves. Or when they first say one thing, then maintain radio silence until suddenly they say something else. I wonder what could possibly solve that problem…? They have made their customers “rabid” and “insatiable” by drip-feeding them, so any bit of information gets devoured and blown out of proportion. There's a solution to that too…