F-16A Fighting Falcon

[Mig Fulcrum]

2 minuti fa, bies ha scritto:

But after OUC it would be yet another heavyweight AMRAAM truck, with lower kinematic performance and maneuverability than Block 10, not relevant without any real air combat, too modern for earlier scenarios which are the reason why most people calls F-16A at the first place. It would be more or less like our late F-16C, but worse. They didn't shoot down any MiGs like Block 10, they didn't fly over Syria or Sinai.

For me the most important factor for F-16A is to depict its original lightweight flight performance and maneuverability of early pure blocks who fought real combat against MiGs.

I completely agree with that but I also find cool to be some kind of competitive even an a modern scenario with a much older F-16.

But as I said I also like the idea of a nimble only-aim-9-equipped F-16 as you say.

[Fromthedeep]

5 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Also, we can get Cold War Russian jets, while in mid-2000s, NATO aircraft don't have any real unclassified opponents.

The Mig-23 is the newest we'll get, the Mig-29 is cancelled.

[bies]

3 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

The Mig-23 is the newest we'll get, the Mig-29 is cancelled.

Blocks 10 in Israeli service fought MiG-21 and MiG-23 over Bekaa Valley in 1982, MiG-29 wasn't even operational those times.

Earliest MiG-29 9.12 being cancelled is a sad thing.

Edited August 29, 2022 by bies

[Northstar98]

37 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

The future of DCS is not 1970-1980

Well, the current trend disagrees with you.

37 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

since they have professional customers who may have different demands for the software.

As Dragon1-1 said, the minority of modules involve professional customers, you've got what? The Mirage 2000C, A-10Cs and the Eurofighter Typhoon?

37 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

Also, not every player likes cold war.

Something that goes for every single era, what's your point?

37 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

It's getting real tiresome to see people pushing and hyping cold war in DCS without any regard for other wishes people may have. Again, to vocal minority strikes again.

Again, something you could say about literally every era.

And how do you know the population sizes?

Edited August 29, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[Dragon1-1]

21 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

The Mig-23 is the newest we'll get, the Mig-29 is cancelled.

And it comes from, guess what, Cold War. Earlier than the Viper, sure, but it had its heyday around that time.

TBH, I don't think its cancellation will last. If not ED, someone else will step up. MiG-29 is in service with several NATO countries, and documentation is easy to come by.

[dawgie79]

23 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Well, the current trend disagrees with you.

As Dragon1-1 said, the minority of modules involve professional customers, you've got what? The Mirage 2000C, A-10Cs and the Eurofighter Typhoon?

Something that goes for every single era, what's your point?

Again, something you could say the same thing about literally any era.

And how do you know the population sizes?

 

The current trend? Hah! Like I said, the vocal minority.  I'm, again, willing to bet that the best selling modules are F-16, F/A-18, A-10.

How I know? Because the userbase is way bigger (as usual with any product) than the forums, where the vocal minority always produces the loudest noise. It's the same with simracing. The vocal minority there cries for oldies. But the best selling content is GT3 and F1. Which are deemed boring by the vocal minority. See any commonalities?

Focussing on one specific thing is not good way to keep your company healthy, since combat flight simming is already niche. It would be foolish is ED started to focus solely on cold war when the best selling modules are the modern jets. Also, and this is just a guess, I'm thinking most die hard posters are older (say, 50+) and therefor have lived the cold war period. Please don't start with "I'm not!". N=1 is not interesting.

About professional customers.
You can bet that combat flight training will be more and more facilitated through software such as DCS. Hardware costs are usually not really an issue but still hardware will also evolve which makes professional simulators obsolete in the not so distant future. So one can then theorize that the professional customer pool will only grow. And with that, the demand for modern military aviation will grow. So ED has to develop new API's for that, like they did with the F/A-18C. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by dawgie79

[Bremspropeller]

So, how many strictly non CW aircraft are still available that are worth doing?

3 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

I'm, again, willing to bet that the best selling modules are F-16, F/A-18, A-10.

Yeah. And I'm willing to bet you'll sell them just once. So what to create next? There's not much modern stuff left. Yet there's a lot of interesting stuff to make left out there.

[bies]

14 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

The current trend? Hah! Like I said, the vocal minority.

Trend means objective future developement of DCS modules, not private opinion of someone.

Trend is there are at least 13 Cold War modules in active developement Mirage F.1, F-4 Phantom, Su-17M, F-8J Crusader, A-7E Corsair, F-100 Super Sabre, IAI Kfir, MiG-17S, MiG-23MLA, MB-339, Fiat G.91, Bolkov 105, A-6 Intruder. Plus possibly some unannounced like Harrier FRS.1, EE lighting, MiG-29 9.12.  And only 2 post-Cold War F-15E and Eurofighter.

Edited August 29, 2022 by bies

[dawgie79]

4 minutes ago, bies said:

Trend means objective future developement of DCS modules, not private opinion of someone.

Trend is there are at least 13 Cold War modules in active developement Mirage F.1, F-4 Phantom, Su-17M, F-8J Crusader, A-7E Corsair, F-100 Super Sabre, IAI Kfir, MiG-17S, MiG-23MLA, MB-339, Fiat G.91, Bolkov 105, A-6 Intruder. Plus possibly some unannounced like Harrier FRS.1, EE lighting, MiG-29 9.12.  And only 2 post-Cold War F-15E and Eurofighter.

 

And still not enough for the cold war hypers among us. Go figure.

They get what they want but they still push for more. 

[Mig Fulcrum]

Honestly since the famous modern (American) aircrafts are finished I would like ED concentrate on early variants of these modules, like F-16A, F-15A, A-10A and even F/A-18A.

Pretty sure they would sell more than maybe more niche 3rd or 2nd gen aircraft. Let the 3rd parties do that. In this way we can simulate from early '70/late '60 all the way up to modern days.

[bies]

8 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

And still not enough for the cold war hypers among us. Go figure.

They get what they want but they still push for more. 

Nobody is pushing anything, all this artificial war is only in your head. Modules are being decided by developers considering many different aspects, availability of information, sales, classification, license, amount of work, demand, current modules, personal preferences and many more.

DCS is an enviroment, all different aircrafts can be put inside. Developers are doing what they want and what they can do.

[dawgie79]

You don't know what's going on in my head, so don't presume you do. It's hard to take someone serious after such an arrogant presumtion. 

 

[bies]

My assumption is more than 90% of DCS customers don't write on forum at all. They either just read or don't use it at all. No point starting artificial wars where DCS is a sandbox with room for different modules from different eras

Edited August 29, 2022 by bies

[dawgie79]

Hence the vocal minorty. A small group of people from already a small group who resides on forums.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by dawgie79

[Ikaros]

1 hour ago, Fromthedeep said:

The Mig-23 is the newest we'll get, the Mig-29 is cancelled.

Where did you see that?

[Evoman]

1 hour ago, dawgie79 said:

The future of DCS is not 1970-1980, since they have professional customers who may have different demands for the software. Also, not every player likes cold war. 

It's getting real tiresome to see people pushing and hyping cold war in DCS without any regard for other wishes people may have. Again, to vocal minority strikes again.

 

 

I understand that there will always be customers with different tastes and demands. However the thing that has been getting tiresome to hear over and over is the demand for opposing Redfore BVR aircraft. I understand the natural need to have an opposing force but it is simply not possible to implement the BVR Redfore forces that most demand at this point in time with current restrictions. The Mig-23 is the newest we'll get, the Mig-29 plans are cancelled.

So as long as BVR customers understand that and are content with just getting to experience those aircraft in single player mode or against each other I see no problem with it.

 

 

[Furiz]

We have learned that fighting which era is more popular leads to nowhere, in the end if an aircraft is not interesting to people they will keep their credit cards in their wallets, same goes with maps, devs can choose to make whatever they want, if it pays off to them it pays off, it their risk to take with modern or cold war plane, if they choose to feed the minority then let them.

I took a screenshot the other day from MP server list, sorted by most players and nr.1 is cold war server followed by a lot of modern servers, ppl play what they like to play:

 

 

Anyway...

about F-16 blk15,

 I think making another variant of the same plane is not good,  I like modern era, but I'd rather see some other cold war plane than another variant of a plane we already have. As we pretend to be pilots, we can pretend to be in blk15 as well.

[skywalker22]

What do you guys think that modern cockpit of 16A looks like? Let's say Romanian's 2nd hand from Portugal. Do they still have that old original cockpit, or is it modernized, and renovated, to at least C variant (block 50, 52), if not something newer?

Edited August 29, 2022 by skywalker22

[bies]

5 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

What do you guys think that modern cockpit of 16A looks like? Let's say Romanian's 2nd hand from Portugal. Do they still have that old original cockpit, or is it modernized, and renovated, to at least C variant (block 50, 52), if not something newer?

 

F-16A MLU cockpit. It looks just like our F-16C Block 50.

[Fromthedeep]

53 minutes ago, dawgie79 said:

Hence the vocal minorty. A small group of people from already a small group who resides on forums.

 

Regardless of anyone's personal perference, the current situation is that the only modules that are possible to make in the future are all Cold War era modules. So what you like or dislikes matters very, very little, if there are no suitable modern era modules to make developers will either have to stop making aircraft all together or they can choose new prospective modules from earlier timeframes. 

 

Unless you'd prefer to not have any more DCS modules after the upcoming few modern aircraft are done, your preference really doesn't matter, older modules are the only option going forward. Now we've established that Cold War and earlier periods are objectively the era that DCS devs can and will focus on. The purpose of the thread is to discuss which variants or aircraft people want to see. Therefore, your argument does nothing but tries to derail the thread with issues that are not only off topic but beyond anyone's control.

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, dawgie79 said:

The current trend? Hah! Like I said, the vocal minority.

Yes, a claim I noticed you didn't back up.

3 hours ago, dawgie79 said:

I'm, again, willing to bet that the best selling modules are F-16, F/A-18, A-10.

Probably are, and?

3 hours ago, dawgie79 said:

How I know? Because the userbase is way bigger (as usual with any product) than the forums, where the vocal minority always produces the loudest noise.

Okay, but I don't see how slinging non-sequiturs my way really helps you here.

3 hours ago, dawgie79 said:

Focussing on one specific thing is not good way to keep your company healthy, since combat flight simming is already niche. It would be foolish is ED started to focus solely on cold war when the best selling modules are the modern jets.

Well, I've got some good news for you - no-one in this thread has suggested that the Cold War be the only thing anyone is allowed to work on going forward and I doubt you'd find many people supporting such a move (me being one of them - look at my signature, I own modern modules) - no-one is going to take the modern era away from you.

But I don't see how taking the scatterbrained, mile-wide, inch-deep approach is particularly healthy either, where we have modules spanning over 70 years but pick any one decade (or any one conflict) and you'll barely find anything that's properly fleshed out (the most fleshed out era probably being WWII, but even that's got issues). Fine for people who don't care about missions with a more historical perspective, pretty bad for anyone who does.

3 hours ago, dawgie79 said:

Also, and this is just a guess, I'm thinking most die hard posters are older (say, 50+) and therefor have lived the cold war period.

Please don't start with "I'm not!". N=1 is not interesting.

Hmmm, getting a little hint of irony.

3 hours ago, dawgie79 said:

About professional customers.
You can bet that combat flight training will be more and more facilitated through software such as DCS. Hardware costs are usually not really an issue but still hardware will also evolve which makes professional simulators obsolete in the not so distant future. So one can then theorize that the professional customer pool will only grow. And with that, the demand for modern military aviation will grow. So ED has to develop new API's for that, like they did with the F/A-18C.

Ahh, I see so this is a crystal ball talking, I mean we can speculate as much as we like - I'm much more interested in the here and now.

2 hours ago, Furiz said:

We have learned that fighting which era is more popular leads to nowhere, in the end if an aircraft is not interesting to people they will keep their credit cards in their wallets, same goes with maps, devs can choose to make whatever they want, if it pays off to them it pays off, it their risk to take with modern or cold war plane, if they choose to feed the minority then let them.

Pretty much exactly this.

2 hours ago, Furiz said:

Anyway...

about F-16 blk15,

 I think making another variant of the same plane is not good,  I like modern era, but I'd rather see some other cold war plane than another variant of a plane we already have.

It really is different enough to be its own module - the cockpit alone shares more in common with the Mirage 2000C's cockpit than the current F-16.

Compared to ours, an A (be it pretty much any block but the MLU) is significantly different in just about every significant way apart from general shape/layout and visibility.

2 hours ago, Furiz said:

As we pretend to be pilots, we can pretend to be in blk15 as well.

Nah, not for me - our aircraft is just too different in ways that are completely beyond your control. It would be like me telling you to pretend you're in a Rafale with the Hornet - that's a bit more extreme for sure, but similar kind of principle.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Northstar98

[Exorcet]

4 hours ago, dawgie79 said:

And still not enough for the cold war hypers among us. Go figure.

They get what they want but they still push for more. 

I still don't know what you're talking about. What is a "push" and how is it different from a request? This section of the forum exists for people to request things and there is a large demand for CW planes. It's not surprising. It's also probably much less divisive than you seem to think since wanting CW planes doesn't mean opposing planes from other eras.

2 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

Regardless of anyone's personal perference, the current situation is that the only modules that are possible to make in the future are all Cold War era modules.

I wouldn't say that. The A-10C has sold 2 modules already. The BlackShark is slated for a third. The CW ended quite a while ago, so there are a lot of variations to go through. We're also completely lacking popular planes like the Super Hornet and F-15C. Still, the older planes are just an interesting, so whether or not there are still modern ones on the table, we should expect more classic options as well.

[Evoman]

4 hours ago, Furiz said:

Anyway...

about F-16 blk15,

 I think making another variant of the same plane is not good,  I like modern era, but I'd rather see some other cold war plane than another variant of a plane we already have. As we pretend to be pilots, we can pretend to be in blk15 as well.

FYI the earlier variants of the F-16A are distinct enough with their lighter weight to offer a completely different gameplay and character, analog cockpit, short range weapon only, but fantastic maneuverability. Another big plus is that the F-16A could be used on cold war servers. So an earlier variant of the F-16 would actually be a very good idea in this case because of the vast difference in performance and suitability it would offer.

[Furiz]

11 minutes ago, Evoman said:

FYI

Yes, it was pretty obvious it is lighter due to lack of systems compared to modern viper, thanks. I still think the same.

[Fromthedeep]

1 hour ago, Furiz said:

Yes, it was pretty obvious it is lighter due to lack of systems compared to modern viper, thanks. I still think the same.

Literally everything is different, from the cockpit, to the FLCS, to the PVI, radar, engine, navigation and so on.