w.i.p Ground units too accurate vs air targets

[RedeyeStorm]

@bigcomputerman, if you have time for it do some tests with tanks and roof mounted mg’s. Versus radar guided AAA like Shilka. For some time I have the impression that manual aimed AA are more accurate than radar guided ones.

A lazy pilot.

 

[bigcomputerman]

11 hours ago, RedeyeStorm said:

@bigcomputerman, if you have time for it do some tests with tanks and roof mounted mg’s. Versus radar guided AAA like Shilka. For some time I have the impression that manual aimed AA are more accurate than radar guided ones.

A lazy pilot.

 

Hahahaha, that's my point!

[schurem]

I wonder if there’s any movement on this issue. Is it investigated, is it on a to do list? Internally fixed mayhaps?

[anfieldroad]

As a mission designer I considered this and therefore approach it that I have to design in controls to limit the response of AI.  To do this I have utilised concentric moving trigger zones and static trigger zones around enemy units which are all set to weapons hold by default.  If you enter the outer zones above a certain altitude AGL then there is a % chance set and if it is met you get 'detected'.  At this point there is a time delay akin to a reaction time like 10s or so (akin to something like "hey look over there is that a helicopter?" *arms guns and swings towards their target*) before they are set weapons free and open fire.  If you move outside the zone for a reasonable period of time it resets itself but given the enemy are more alert now the response time is less.  The inner rings don't care about altitude AGL and have no % set, you get detected 100% if you enter the inner trigger zone.

I also use concealed units which do not want to be detected but will open fire if fired upon.  These also use a similar trigger zone system whereby if you enter the outer zone they will remain weapons free regardless, but as you get closer and get into the middle zone there is a small % chance someone may get scared or get an itchy trigger finger in which case they open up.  Get into the inner circle and they just open up regardless.  I was working on a scout helicopter campaign using such a system but because you cannot use community mods in paid campaigns I pulled the plug.  Plus I am waiting for suitable theatres and aircraft to carry this out with eg Vietnam and an OH-6 and Cobra combination.

[SabreDancer]

Just from random testing wondering if things have improved, I placed down a couple dozen BMPs, 60 infantry, 24 technicals, etc. and flew over and around them in an A-10 several times. It seems that something has changed! The a mount of laser-accurate fire is pretty low now, and almost every shot misses even when in level flight.

The only AAA and ground units in general which I could get to reliably hit very often were the Shilka and Flakvierling (oddly, if expectedly).

Better ground unit targeting perhaps.trk

Edited November 7, 2023 by SabreDancer

[schurem]

It seems indeed that the non AAA units miss a lot more. I tested with an A-10 and a Mozzie. Not flown a chopper in harms way yet..

I strafed a bunch of BMP-2's (those used to straight up 360 no-scope me in that run) and they shot at me, and it was scary, but they didn't tear off both engines and knock off the wings. Great!

 

If this gripe is actually taken care of, ED should do well to make bit more of a fuss about it. I know I will

Edited December 22, 2023 by schurem

[MIghtymoo]

I must agree. Have not been «sniped» for quite some time…

[schurem]

Sadly, I must complain once more. Yesterday I flew a multiplayer session with my friends, and especially the chopper drivers complained of sniper BMP fire and ATGM's scoring hits on maneouvering helos.

[NineLine]

13 hours ago, schurem said:

Sadly, I must complain once more. Yesterday I flew a multiplayer session with my friends, and especially the chopper drivers complained of sniper BMP fire and ATGM's scoring hits on maneouvering helos.

It's reported and acknowledged, I recommend for now to not allow non-AA units to engage air targets. This can be done in Advanced WP actions.

[MIghtymoo]

Hope this will be fixed on the next patch.

[Raviar]

any progress on this matter ? are we going to get diffrent skill set for Ground AI?

[schurem]

Superb to have a substantial update on this issue, and in the newsletter no less!

[schurem]

And delivered! Now the next step is to see about the accuracy of pintle mounts and working in traverse restrictions and sight field of view restrictions. 

 

Love the progress made! Flying hog became a lot more fun! Still, one does well not to stick around after a first pass...

[Flappie]

Thank you for the feedback.

Coincidentally, this update features an updated RPG rocket with the correct speed (it was way too fast before), which means AI RPG units now have more difficulties hitting helicopters passing by.

[Psifire]

I think there is still an issue with accuracy of non-AA units, (I get plinked in passes by rifle fire too often) but overall there has been some substantive improvements on this.  That is really good to see, and more than I expected when I started this thread.

[Psifire]

On 10/1/2023 at 11:14 PM, anfieldroad said:

As a mission designer I considered this and therefore approach it that I have to design in controls to limit the response of AI.  To do this I have utilised concentric moving trigger zones and static trigger zones around enemy units which are all set to weapons hold by default.  If you enter the outer zones above a certain altitude AGL then there is a % chance set and if it is met you get 'detected'.  At this point there is a time delay akin to a reaction time like 10s or so (akin to something like "hey look over there is that a helicopter?" *arms guns and swings towards their target*) before they are set weapons free and open fire.  If you move outside the zone for a reasonable period of time it resets itself but given the enemy are more alert now the response time is less.  The inner rings don't care about altitude AGL and have no % set, you get detected 100% if you enter the inner trigger zone.

I also use concealed units which do not want to be detected but will open fire if fired upon.  These also use a similar trigger zone system whereby if you enter the outer zone they will remain weapons free regardless, but as you get closer and get into the middle zone there is a small % chance someone may get scared or get an itchy trigger finger in which case they open up.  Get into the inner circle and they just open up regardless.  I was working on a scout helicopter campaign using such a system but because you cannot use community mods in paid campaigns I pulled the plug.  Plus I am waiting for suitable theatres and aircraft to carry this out with eg Vietnam and an OH-6 and Cobra combination.

I have been struggling with this too, and have come up with a few similar methods.  Specifically I'm trying to figure out how to tell British Type 42 destroyers and Type 22 frigates not to perfectly target A-4s with SAMs when they pop over the hills of Falkland Sound.  Rectangular moving trigger zones that will stop a destroyer from firing Sea Dart if a ship passes between them and the direction of most likely attack, and random triggers for weapons safe are about the best I can do.  Recreating the Falklands scenarios without heavily changing the behavior of the British combatants leads to every fighter getting shot down before they can get close to dropping bombs on warships.  What would help with that would be a system where you can set a percentage chance that a system will fail when it is used, then a set percentage chance that they will get it up and running again after 15 seconds.  Have it check every 15 seconds against the Restoration Probability until it is restored.  That would allow me to simulate the chaos of trying to lock a low flying aircraft and utilize a system at the edge of it's capabilities.  Grim Reapers replaced the Type 42s and 22s in one of their recent scenarios with less capable ships just so they could try to run a historical scenario.  Running the actual scenario against the actual historical ships present at the battle produces a result that differs greatly from historical results.  That's a problem.

[Psifire]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:07 AM, Flappie said:

Thank you for the feedback.

Coincidentally, this update features an updated RPG rocket with the correct speed (it was way too fast before), which means AI RPG units now have more difficulties hitting helicopters passing by.

That is huge.  They used to be waaaaay too effective against air targets.  HOWEVER, they shouldn't be able to shoot them above about 30 degree elevation at all.  If you point an RPG in the air and fire it you are likely to lose your legs.  The backblast is serious.  During the battle of Mogadishu they fitted aluminum shields that redirected the backblast.  That was how they were able to shoot down Blackhawks with RPGs.  Standard RPG shouldn't be capable of being fired at high elevation at all, or at least without damaging the unit.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Psifire said:

I think there is still an issue with accuracy of non-AA units, (I get plinked in passes by rifle fire too often) but overall there has been some substantive improvements on this.  That is really good to see, and more than I expected when I started this thread.

As always, it's good to have tracks showing examples of issues you might still be seeing. 

[Psifire]

9 hours ago, NineLine said:

As always, it's good to have tracks showing examples of issues you might still be seeing. 

Honestly it's not really an issue anymore, and I'm not sure I don't like it this way.  The only thing I have noticed is that sometimes when making fairly fast passes with an aircraft (not so fast that they stop firing at you, but fast enough that you are a hard target) you get plinked with a couple of AK rounds.  It's definitely no longer the sniper AKs dumping half a mag into the engine of a Mustang on a low pass at 200 knots.  The updated AA behavior is a massive improvement, and I tested this after the improvements were done by completing a 40 mission low intensity COIN campaign in an MB-339 without a single airframe lost.  This was a highly randomized campaign that I built in which you wouldn't run into anything more formidable than an S-60, or a ZSU-23, and mostly would be dealing with technicals, infantry, some fixed machine gun positions and in rare instances some light armor (BRDMs, and BTRs and that one artillery asset with a defensive 7.62mm machine gun.)  Before the updates, it was too hard.  This campaign is built to be an operational flying challenge, not an intense combat challenge.  If you are killed once, restart the campaign.  The entire point of it was to be survivable.  Before the update I would inevitably get pilot sniped by a BTR a few missions in.  Now it works as intended in the MB-339 and I'm guessing that will translate to the other light attack aircraft.  I haven't run a helo campaign yet so I'll have to try to run it in the Huey next.  Congrats to Eagle Dynamics on a job well done.  Now please add light AA positions.  I'd love a fixed sandbag emplacement with a choice between a light MG or a heavy MG.  I'm sick of watchtowers, and right now they are the only way to put a fixed 7.62mm AA position in a mission.  Also, add a Red light machine-gun infantry unit please.  The variety of the infantry units in general could be greater.  They represent the best AA assets for light helos to tangle with and there is a lack of variety that makes mission creation less interesting.  Maybe I should just make you a list...  Seriously though ED, it's amazing that you are as responsive to the community as you are.  This is a night and day improvement, you fixed the game.

[simo-dj]

I made a new topic in another sections (i'll delete it asap).

It happened that a Shilka in the new Germany Map destroyed me and my apache by shooting trough woods. It was very strange seeing those damn tracers coming out from the woods. I approached the SPAAA very low level and was a less than 30 feet high when, with absolutely no LOS i was shot down.

I wondered if it was due to some bug coming from the new map or the ground units..