already reported pulling cyclic aft or pushing forward causes roll

[skypickle]

In the attached track, the helo is hot started. After achieving level flight, heading 090 at 115 knots,the helo will roll to the right when cyclic is pulled aft (only a little)  Then (heading 109 at 105 knts) pushing cyclic forward causes a left roll so severe  resulting in an inversion. Look at the controls box to see that only pitch was manipulated.

This is what I would expect from gyroscopic precession. 

Doesnt the FADEC (or FCS) take gyroscopic precession into account and adjust the blades to prevent this (basically fly by wire)?

ApacheRoll2.trk

[kgillers3]

 

38 minutes ago, skypickle said:

 

Doesnt the FADEC (or FCS) take gyroscopic precession into account and adjust the blades to prevent this (basically fly by wire)?

ApacheRoll2.trk 4.63 MB · 0 downloads

So, the controls are rigged for gyroscopic precession. Otherwise to change the pitch you would have to move the controls laterally. I imagine that the effect is them fine tuning the flight model.  But all helicopters even the most rudimentary flight control systems have their controls so that pitch is off set so the blades actually feather in vicinity of the 3-9 o clock positions and for roll in vicinity of the 12-06 clock positions. The scas systems of helicopters helps, but the mechanisms that control the blades are usually mechanically offset. 
 

tl,dr gyroscopic precession isn’t something the pilot deals with except with going through etl usually. It’s engineered/designed to be countered. This is more and likely them working out the flight model 

[dedlike.]

we already have confirmation by the devs that the current FM is wrong and that there should be no roll, so im confident it will get adressed, the question is when

[1130]

SO WHEN 

[admiki]

2 weeks

[dedlike.]

my guess is that they stoped working on smal fixes and are probly gonna redo the whole FM / SCAS logic and we wont see a fix on it till that one comes out

[Schlomo1933]

I‚m Not shure if the flightmodel was changing in the last 2 patches…

maybe it’s just me, but I think the Apache feels a bit different. Someone else is noticing this? 

[DOG]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:25 AM, Schlomo1933 said:

I‚m Not shure if the flightmodel was changing in the last 2 patches…

maybe it’s just me, but I think the Apache feels a bit different. Someone else is noticing this? 

i kind of felt the same but the devs already said they didn't change anything to the flight model in the last patches. so i am a bit confused now lol

[admiki]

17 minutes ago, DOG said:

i kind of felt the same but the devs already said they didn't change anything to the flight model in the last patches. so i am a bit confused now lol

They also didn't do anything to holding modes when those got broken. 

[shagrat]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb admiki:

They also didn't do anything to holding modes when those got broken. 

Actually they did... As per changelog

(...)"Fixed: Attitude Hold "enable" conditions"(...)

[Thorns]

Flight feels like it did last year...wants to roll...

 

[CervO]

I confirm the same, more then ever since the last update when reducing collective the Apache rolls right like a wild horse.

It was kind of existing before but not so much, here it is kind of crazy. Hopefully the real one doesn't behave like that because there would be a lot of RIP.

Can't believe nothing was changed that impacts the flight model .. it is so obvious.

Edited April 17, 2023 by CervO

[Floyd1212]

18 minutes ago, CervO said:

reducing collective the Apache rolls right like a wild horse

Please post a track or a video (with the Controls Indicator visible) so others can see what you are experiencing. 

I'm not sure how much or how fast you are dropping the collective, nor do I know how much a wild horse rolls, having never ridden one.

(Yes, I understand capturing a video and hosting it is not a trivial matter, but recording a track is quite easy.)

[ShuRugal]

3 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

(Yes, I understand capturing a video and hosting it is not a trivial matter, but recording a track is quite easy.)

Recording app video has never been easier:

Using Windows Game Bar: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/record-a-game-clip-on-your-pc-with-xbox-game-bar-2f477001-54d4-1276-9144-b0416a307f3c#ID0EDD=Windows_10

Using GeForce Experience: https://www.trustedreviews.com/how-to/how-to-record-video-with-nvidia-shadowplay-4278309

Using AMD Radeon: https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/dh2-023

as far as hosting it goes, there are dozens of free HD-video hosting websites, YouTube being foremost among them for ease of use and accessibility.

[SMH]

On 12/10/2022 at 6:50 PM, kgillers3 said:

 

So, the controls are rigged for gyroscopic precession. Otherwise to change the pitch you would have to move the controls laterally. I imagine that the effect is them fine tuning the flight model.  But all helicopters even the most rudimentary flight control systems have their controls so that pitch is off set so the blades actually feather in vicinity of the 3-9 o clock positions and for roll in vicinity of the 12-06 clock positions. The scas systems of helicopters helps, but the mechanisms that control the blades are usually mechanically offset. 
 

tl,dr gyroscopic precession isn’t something the pilot deals with except with going through etl usually. It’s engineered/designed to be countered. This is more and likely them working out the flight model 

I was always taught this as well but when I look at the rigging of the Huey it doesn't seem to be the case. Push forward on the cyclic and the pitch at the 6:00 position increases, etc. Is this incorrect as I've always suspected?

[admiki]

45 minutes ago, SMH said:

I was always taught this as well but when I look at the rigging of the Huey it doesn't seem to be the case. Push forward on the cyclic and the pitch at the 6:00 position increases, etc. Is this incorrect as I've always suspected?

I don't see that? Are you looking at blades or non-rotating swashplate?

Edited April 19, 2023 by admiki

[SMH]

15 hours ago, admiki said:

I don't see that? Are you looking at blades or non-rotating swashplate?

 

At the swashplate with a non-running engine. Use LCtrl+F11 to fly right up to the rotor head and look down at the swashplate. The swashplate tilts in the same direction the cyclic is pushed in.

[admiki]

1 hour ago, SMH said:

At the swashplate with a non-running engine. Use LCtrl+F11 to fly right up to the rotor head and look down at the swashplate. The swashplate tilts in the same direction the cyclic is pushed in.

But, it is offset by 90 degrees. Blades move as they are supposed to.

[SMH]

1 hour ago, admiki said:

But, it is offset by 90 degrees. Blades move as they are supposed to.

It's not though. Take a look. Push the cyclic forward and the swash plate tilts forward. (I realize that's just the visual representation and not necessarily what the flight model is modeling. But might point towards some confusion somewhere.)

[admiki]

2 hours ago, SMH said:

It's not though. Take a look. Push the cyclic forward and the swash plate tilts forward. (I realize that's just the visual representation and not necessarily what the flight model is modeling. But might point towards some confusion somewhere.)

Swashplate just transfers pitch to blades, you need to look at blades themselves. 

Swashplate and blades move as they should

[BIGNEWY]

Folks this is reported and when there is changes to the FM it will be in the change log. 

thank you