no bug IA using MANPADS only at very close range.

[Akenar-99]

Hello,

 

I have noticed that the IA units using MANPADS shoot only at very close range (2km  max).

This is way lower than the theroritical range.

Ground units using guns (12.7 or ZU23) shoot at way bigger range than MANPADS and very accruatly.

This happens all the time.

I wander if this is on purpose.

 

Thanks a lot

[ngreenaway]

15 hours ago, Akenar-99 said:

Hello,

 

I have noticed that the IA units using MANPADS shoot only at very close range (2km  max).

This is way lower than the theroritical range.

 

without being to find a citation , this sounds correct.

consider that the most effective range to engage will be much less than the maximum effective range.  because virtually all manpads are single shot devices, its critical to hold off shooting until the missile has its highest kill probability

just because a manpads range may be 5km, doesnt mean you are going to visually acquire, identify and fire on a target at 5 km

also consider because the engagement envelope is best described as a dome rather than a cylinder, the higher the target, the shorter the overland distance will be for a given range compared to the horizontal distance shown on your f10 map

 

[Akenar-99]

I totally agree with you, but concidering that, don't understand how a ZU 23 on a pick_up can snipe me at a longer range when the MANPAD didn't react.

 

[ngreenaway]

God-tier accuracy of AAA gunners has been a long running complaint. No need to take a weapon system that *seems* to have a reasonable engagement envelope and break it simply cuz other weapon systems appear to be overly accurate at extreme ranges

Perhaps the complaint should be why do gunners seem to over-perform?

[Akenar-99]

Other thing, it is really strange when flying a helo to be shot down by an ATGM when the SA13 close to the shooter even didn't notice that we were there...
 

Even if it is normal for an IR missile not to be shot from maximum range, they are only shot from really really close. And ATGM from too far away on a moving helo !

Edited December 30, 2022 by Akenar-99

[DukeAngus]

you saying really far and to close do nothing to help your cause, it would be more better for you to get actual measurements of distances and best to post a track file. that way we can see what is really going on.

[Akenar-99]

Too far for ATGM  means 3km.

Too low for MANPADS mean less than 1.5km (when looking at the shooter with the TADS (FLIR), he is aiming at me since 4km).

Mounted machine guns shoots at 2.5km approximatly

 

[NineLine]

On 12/29/2022 at 8:21 AM, Akenar-99 said:

I totally agree with you, but concidering that, don't understand how a ZU 23 on a pick_up can snipe me at a longer range when the MANPAD didn't react.

 

Well its a dude with a giant heavy tube on his shoulder vs a gun mounted on a stable platform. I don't think there is an issue there.

Guns platforms can spray a little more as well so sure they might start firing earlier, they have more than one shot before reloading. 

As for getting sniped by the Zu-23, I ask for tracks all the time, so make sure you include a track of this if you want to have this looked at. If you are not flying evasively then yeah, a Zu-23 will ruin your day in a Helo.

[metzger]

14 hours ago, NineLine said:

Well its a dude with a giant heavy tube on his shoulder vs a gun mounted on a stable platform. I don't think there is an issue there.

Guns platforms can spray a little more as well so sure they might start firing earlier, they have more than one shot before reloading. 

As for getting sniped by the Zu-23, I ask for tracks all the time, so make sure you include a track of this if you want to have this looked at. If you are not flying evasively then yeah, a Zu-23 will ruin your day in a Helo.

Even if you are not flying evasively, they should not be able to snipe you out with the first burst. Try manually aiming at a stationarry hellicopter size object from 3km, now try to aim at it when it moves with 200km and your gun weights a ton and you cant move it very precicely really. The manually operated ZU-23 can only shoot bursts roughly towards your direction, but not have the perfect lead and aim on the first burst. 

TOW ATGMs are also overpowered and can take you out from 4-5km. BMP2 is equal or more dangerous than SA-13 in DCS.

[Akenar-99]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:31 PM, metzger said:

Even if you are not flying evasively, they should not be able to snipe you out with the first burst. Try manually aiming at a stationarry hellicopter size object from 3km, now try to aim at it when it moves with 200km and your gun weights a ton and you cant move it very precicely really. The manually operated ZU-23 can only shoot bursts roughly towards your direction, but not have the perfect lead and aim on the first burst. 

TOW ATGMs are also overpowered and can take you out from 4-5km. BMP2 is equal or more dangerous than SA-13 in DCS.

I totally agree with you.

[Hobel]

Am 29.12.2022 um 00:18 schrieb Akenar-99:

Hello,

 

I have noticed that the IA units using MANPADS shoot only at very close range (2km  max).

This is way lower than the theroritical range.

Ground units using guns (12.7 or ZU23) shoot at way bigger range than MANPADS and very accruatly.

This happens all the time.

I wander if this is on purpose.

 

Thanks a lot

Do you have a track? In my tests, Igla and Stinger start firing at 4km.
 

Edit: against Jets

Edited January 14, 2023 by Hobel

[Akenar-99]

I don't have any track recorded right now.

But I precise that it is flying with the Apache, which has a low IR signature. This could explain it.
I am shot from a bigger distance with the F18 or F16.

But still, when looking to the shooter with my TADS, I can see him aimming at about 4 km.

I will try to give you a track this weekend.

 

[Ironhand]

2 minutes ago, Akenar-99 said:

…But still, when looking to the shooter with my TADS, I can see him aimming at about 4 km.

Which makes sense, if you have a low IR signature. He can see you and aim at you but, until he is able to get a lock on you, he won’t be able to launch.

[Akenar-99]

Here is the track I just made.

Conditions :

SA24  -  Expert  -  Alert state : RED  -  Departure : 1.2 km (0.6 NM) from the helicopter track

Outcome :

Enemy indentifies the Apache at 5 km (2.7 NM) and shoot at 2 km (1.1 NM).

 

PS : CMWS on auto-despense (I let the system do everything by itself ; no flares manual dispense). The missile is detected between 1 and 2 seconds after launch. Which is almost too late for the first shot, and way too late for the second one.

 

MANPAD Test.trk

Edited January 13, 2023 by Akenar-99

[Hobel]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Akenar-99:

Enemy indentifies the Apache at 5 km (2.7 NM) and shoot at 2 km (1.1 NM).

i can't play because mods are being used".
HighDigitSAMs "

 

 

However, there are reports like this that a QUH-1 that was over 4.5km away was shot down.

Zitat

In a 19 November 1996 demonstration, a Stinger (ATAS) Block-1 missile was launched from an OH-58D at the Yuma Proving Ground and successfully destroyed a QUH-1 drone helicopter deploying countermeasures at a range greater than 2.8 miles (4,500 m).

 

Then there is this test here, a Stinger fired at a small drone at 2.5km. I would argue that the drone has a smaller IR signature than a helicopter.
so the Stinger would theoretically also be able to detect helicopters at a greater range as mentioned in the report above.

So it would be advisable to find more such reports or even documents that support this.

[Akenar-99]

I will remove the mod and reproduce the situation this afternoon.

 

[Ironhand]

Just a note on mods keeping you from opening a TRK file. You can edit out the mod reference in the mission file. Unzip the TRK file and open the enclosed mission file with NotePad++. The reference will be right at the top. What to delete will be obvious.

[Akenar-99]

If required, I made another trak without the mod and with a SA18.

It is even worse. You can see that he sees me at more than 5 km and shoot at 1.6 km. Which is way below the max range. Still exellent IA in RED alert state.

 

MANPAD Test 2.trk

[Hiob]

Just a related question…

What’s the expected effectiveness of flaring against a manpads? I mean, I‘m aware that the answer is most likely „it depends“, but I‘m tinkering with the countermeasure programs of the Viper currently and set up a guy with a Stinger. So far I wasn’t able to dodge the incoming missile even once.

I tried short bursts, long bursts, from default programs all the way up to spamming flares „Maverick-Style“. No afterburner, around 3000ft AGL and I try to turn into the incoming missile when I spot it.

[Akenar-99]

Same test with another infrared seeker SAM, the SA13.

Starting to aim at me at more than 5 km. Traking and shooting at 2 km.

 

 

SA13 IR SAM Test.trk

Edited January 14, 2023 by Akenar-99

[Hobel]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Akenar-99:

If required, I made another trak without the mod and with a SA18.

It is even worse. You can see that he sees me at more than 5 km and shoot at 1.6 km. Which is way below the max range. Still exellent IA in RED alert state.

 

MANPAD Test 2.trk 800.72 kB · 0 Downloads

But it doesn't just affect the AI, even when you take control you can only shoot from 1.5-2km.
-apache Front aspect

 

From the rear it is more.

As an example, a Mi-24 without ir-filter can be fired at from the rear for 5.5-6km.

 

[Akenar-99]

2 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Just a related question…

What’s the expected effectiveness of flaring against a manpads? I mean, I‘m aware that the answer is most likely „it depends“, but I‘m tinkering with the countermeasure programs of the Viper currently and set up a guy with a Stinger. So far I wasn’t able to dodge the incoming missile even once.

I tried short bursts, long bursts, from default programs all the way up to spamming flares „Maverick-Style“. No afterburner, around 3000ft AGL and I try to turn into the incoming missile when I spot it.

I would say far less with an F16 than with an AH64, concidering your IR signature. And it is like that in DCS.

But you are far more likely to be shot at in an helicopter, This is the point of the missile launch detector in th helicopter (CMWS).

I succed in dodging MANPDS in the F16. But only dropping buckets of flares preventively when entering in the killzone.

[Hobel]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Hiob:

Just a related question…

What’s the expected effectiveness of flaring against a manpads? I mean, I‘m aware that the answer is most likely „it depends“, but I‘m tinkering with the countermeasure programs of the Viper currently and set up a guy with a Stinger. So far I wasn’t able to dodge the incoming missile even once.

I tried short bursts, long bursts, from default programs all the way up to spamming flares „Maverick-Style“. No afterburner, around 3000ft AGL and I try to turn into the incoming missile when I spot it.

Do you have a track? 

Manpads are actually very sensitive to flares.  I usually hit 3-7 flares manually against manpads and that's usually enough.

  Did you use preflare, as far as I know it doesn't work yet, at least there is a bug report about it from a few weeks ago.

 

Note it can of course always have changed something, so that's my last stand

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Do you have a track? 

Manpads are actually very sensitive to flares.  I usually hit 3-7 flares manually against manpads and that's usually enough.

  Did you use preflare, as far as I know it doesn't work yet, at least there is a bug report about it from a few weeks ago.

 

Note it can of course always have changed something, so that's my last stand

No, no track yet. I‘ll try to provide some later.

No preflaring, since I was simulating the reaction to an unknown threat.

[Akenar-99]

6 minutes ago, Hobel said:

But it doesn't just affect the AI, even when you take control you can only shoot from 1.5-2km.
-apache Front aspect

 

From the rear it is more.

As an example, a Mi-24 without ir-filter can be fired at from the rear for 5.5-6km.

 

I just tried with different aspects (side and rear) It is not more than 500 meters different.

The Apache IR signature must be extremly low...