Praise for Legacy Hornet

[wilbur81]

ALL of our 4th Gen Legacy fighters are amazing platforms, and we are being treated to the Golden Age of mil flight sim by ED right now. However...

Almost weekly, I'll come across some YT video of a DCS PvP BFM fight, a real world Hornet driver praising the jet, real world non-Hornet driver praising the jet, etc...when, invariably, someone in the comment section (or in the ole' forums) will say something like the following under an interview with former F-14D Tomcat & F/A-18A Hornet Pilot Mike Vizcarra (below):

and other general slams such as:

"The Hornet is a lame duck"

"The Tomcat is superior in BFM"

"The Viper is superior in every way, especially in BFM"

"The Eagle is superior in BFM" 

"The DCS Hornet is overpowered because I lost to it in BFM" 

etc. etc.

It seems to me that the Legacy Hornet (especially the big-engine Charlie) is one of the most misunderstood, underrated dogfighters in the world. For those who are interested, I thought I'd drop you a bunch of (mostly) time-stamped links to various real world F-15C, F-15E, F-14A/D, F-16C T-bird, and Legacy Hornet crew praising the Legacy Charlie and its WVR performance, and busting some other coffee-table-book-myths about the Legacy Hornet. One thing to note: ALL of the men here have plenty of DACT experience against every 4th Gen USAF/Navy fighters (which of course many of them talk about if you want to watch the whole video).

Finally, HUGE shout outs to Mike and Steve at AC Interview and 10 Percent True! If you don't subscribe to either of these guys' online content, you are missing out BIG TIME. Enjoy...

Praise for WVR-BFM Performance

https://youtu.be/a-gPWlODKCY?si=YHlnvhcH-ZK_g0Ik&t=4642 
https://youtu.be/Vz7B_QfF_hw?t=224
https://youtu.be/w877J-B6IXU?t=975
https://youtu.be/APAEykrfUZs?t=1515
https://youtu.be/yDMVhAh7nOQ?t=162
https://youtu.be/yDMVhAh7nOQ?t=401
https://youtu.be/eD9s0Eb6c7U?t=3432
https://youtu.be/y-a-CL8ClX8?t=9

 

Praise for the Apg-73 from a Mudhen WSO

https://youtu.be/eD9s0Eb6c7U?t=3481
https://youtu.be/Q_n78CvQrRY?t=1017

 

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by wilbur81

[Spirale]

Thx a lot Wilbur

[idenwen]

10.5g on a hornet? Ouch!

[Spirale]

Thx again Wilbur, i watched all this video and this is a fantastic find, the IRL pilots all agree that the Legacy Hornet is a very impressive machine

exciting

I have  a great number of modules and all the F'xx but i discovered the real potential of the F18 when i flew it across 2 very well done campaigns: Sedlo's "Bold Cheetah" and Baltic Dragon's " Dominante fury".

During and after this very demnding campaigns it appears to me that the F18 is a very very capable aircraft under all type of conditions! I did't realize it at first

Edited January 15, 2023 by Spirale

[wilbur81]

On 1/15/2023 at 9:30 AM, Spirale said:

 

I have  a great number of modules and all the F'xx but i discovered the real potential of the F18 when i flew it across 2 very well done campaigns: Sedlo's "Bold Cheetah" and Baltic Dragon's " Dominante fury".

During and after this very demnding campaigns it appears to me that the F18 is a very very capable aircraft under all type of conditions! I did't realize it at first

 

For sure, my pleasure. Baltic's Raven campaigns really do put the Hornet through its paces! They're excellent campaigns.

It seems that there are a good many F-15C and E guys in particular who sing the praises of the Hornet when it comes to the in-close knife fight. Look up a dozen real world Viper BFM HUD tapes and you'll see that they are fighting between 200 and 400kts most of the time, and under 7.5 g's. (In this example, the Viper doesn't exceed 300kts in a minute and a half of BFM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOa9eWgFllEI)

Wombat said it well in one of the Vids I linked: "I'll let the Viper have it's 9g's all day long." The Hornet keeps a slightly slower but smaller circle while the 9G guy wears out as he rates around... which is probably why the Viper, Eagle, Hornet, etc. guys are not BFM'ing at 9G's and 450kts much of the time in the real world vids I've seen. (The dudes doing 60+ seconds of 9g in the centrifuge aren't doing anything else). 

I think the Hornet received A LOT of flak when the Navy brought it alongside the Tomcat, which they let age-out. Tomcat guys hated on it... then USAF hated on it because its distant Step-Father (the Northrop YF-17 Cobra) was seen as a 'loser' because of coming in second in the LWF competition. Add in a slower top speed (even though it out-accelerated F-15's up to certain numbers), and the popular (negative) perception is complete. The Hornet was kind of the F-35 of the 80s in many ways. And the "Fuel Problem" was mostly only when in comparison to the Tomcat, Intruder, and A-7... the Hornet actually manages fuel quite nicely as said in one of the Vids, but they are weaker compared to the Tomcat, Intruder or Mudhen in that regard (It's just a smaller, sleeker airframe).

Anyway, not trying to make the Hornet out to be better than it is (it certainly has weaknesses [read: "Too Slow"], as do all jets barring the F-22 ), but trying to argue that it is falsely underrated and every bit an equal to all the other 4th gen fighters, with its own strengths and weaknesses. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by wilbur81

[wilbur81]

...And who needs that fat, slow, and ugly "Super" Hornet when you can have a sleek and speedy Charlie with AESA?

nullhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pimba-73xHM

 

[wilbur81]

Man, I miss the Hornet at Airshows. This "A" model for the Aussie's put on a better high performance display than any Super Hornet display I've ever seen, in person or on the YT. Absolutely spectacular! Come to think of it... the old USN Charlie displays I've seen here at US airshows back in the early 2000s did not wring it out like these guys....And the Aussie's jets were still 7.5g limited FCS... and of course, SPECTACULAR photography here! Enjoy:

 

[wilbur81]

Some more Legacy praise from Gonky:

Legacy Hornet (A-D) will go Mach 1+ in Military Power, even with a center line tank, two pylons, and missiles on the wing-tips:

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by wilbur81

[Spirale]

Thx Wilbur, this topic is a gem as well as the video above

[Phantom_Mark]

For me the stand out feature is the nose authority, if you can fly it with that in mind it is able to give anything a run for its money if you play to its strengths, IMO.

Last time lost against the Tomcat was merely because I flew outside my corner speed sweet spot, my error, and the guy in the Cat knew exactly where he needed to be to nail me.

[Gianky]

On 7/31/2023 at 5:14 AM, wilbur81 said:

Some more Legacy praise from Gonky:

Legacy Hornet (A-D) will go Mach 1+ in Military Power, even with a center line tank, two pylons, and missiles on the wing-tips:

 

I just tried that in DCS, it works!

I fired up the Caucasus Case I recovery mission, you have a clean Hornet with a centerline tank, no pylons and wingtip Sidewinders; after the first landing, I launched again, and while I was getting back behind the boat I thought: "Why not test if the DCS Hornet can supercruise?" So, with 6k pounds of fuel left, I did what Gonky said, got up to 28k feet, full miitary and, lo and behold, I got Mach 1.06 out of it!

Great thread, @wilbur81, thank you for all the videos in the first post, they're great!

Edited August 9, 2023 by Gianky

[wilbur81]

On 8/9/2023 at 5:51 PM, Gianky said:

I just tried that in DCS, it works!

I fired up the Caucasus Case I recovery mission, you have a clean Hornet with a centerline tank, no pylons and wingtip Sidewinders; after the first landing, I launched again, and while I was getting back behind the boat I thought: "Why not test if the DCS Hornet can supercruise?" So, with 6k pounds of fuel left, I did what Gonky said, got up to 28k feet, full miitary and, lo and behold, I got Mach 1.06 out of it!

Great thread, @wilbur81, thank you for all the videos in the first post, they're great!

 

My pleasure. 

[Nealius]

Re: the "general slams"

The slams are mostly non-pilots falling victim to good old tribalism with a sprinkle of taking pilot trash talk/jesting too seriously.

[wilbur81]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

Re: the "general slams"

The slams are mostly non-pilots falling victim to good old tribalism with a sprinkle of taking pilot trash talk/jesting too seriously.

Very true... and probably with a fair deal of MACTBDCADM at play as well. 

(Military Aircraft Coffee Table Book and Discovery Channel Aviation Documentary Misinformation)

[Digitalvole]

I’m regularly shocked by how much I like the Hornet, as I had zero interest in it before the DCS one came out. I much preferred the F16 but, though I still like the Viper, the Hornet is now my “plane wife”. I’m wearing a Hornet T-shirt right now.

It has it all: weapons, looks, naval ops, and has the best performance in VR of any of the planes I own. Could be a touch faster and some more fuel would be nice (and I wouldn’t say no to some cbu 97s/105s) but my only real bug bear is no single Amram.

I keep trying to light the flame of love for other aircraft (Harrier, F14, F16, Apache, F15E) but I always end up back home in my Hornet. The Mudhen  is mighty fine looking and right up my street (AG yes please) but I can’t get a reliable 90fps in it like I Can in the Hornet.

[Steel Jaw]

the hornet remains my go to jet, versatile fighter-bomber with naval ops and looks very cool, plus it has the best cockpit and vr performance is excellent.

[wilbur81]

More Legacy Hornet praise from a former Viper driver...

 

[Hulkbust44]

I love the Hornet. However, I wonder what the opinion would be from all those pilots about the DCS Hornet?
Do we have the same plane all those pilots are praising? I hope so.

Sadly not I'd say, were missing some significant high alpha capability as it is, and the advanced systems they all praise either don't exist or are just a shell in DCS. An exchange tour Eagle driver said that he was most impressed with and loved the AZ/EL with the MSI suite, and lobbed for years to get similar for the F-15s.

That core sensors fusion system is what really makes the modern C model what it is, we do have a fraction of that.

I did a system by system comparison and our jet is closest to a 2001 F/A-18+ across the board, but even that had MSI.

Save for a JHMCS, an 2001 A+ would be infinitely more capable than what we have in DCS. And the real C model in 05 was a massive upgrade from that.

We have half an A+ or a quarter of a C.

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[Raisuli]

I love my F/A-18A+(C/2).  If I had a real F/A-18C I wouldn't even know how to strap in, and forget about wrenching it (or paying for a full tank of gas).  Besides, It wouldn't fit in my garage.

But I can pretend to take off, use cartoon -154As to DEAD an airfield, then come back in and do all kinds of harm to a pretend ammo dump (with lots of simulated secondary explosions) blow up most of the helo graphics, do a 600 knot overhead break over a representation of a friendly airfield, roll left to break right, and act like I landed all without leaving my home office.

All with stunning visuals and seamless integration with my home-built simpit.  Plus or minus a few annoyances along the way.  Like trying to formation land with a B-1 and getting wake tubulenced into a tree right at the edge of the runway.

Pretty awesome!  It's the closest a guy who never could be a military pilot will ever get to military aviation, and there's no military BS to go along with it.  Doesn't get better than that!  For that matter it's as close as 98% of the people who play DCS will ever get to actually flying military aircraft.

Is it perfect?  Gosh, I hope not.  There are people out there who do this for real, and I'd hate for this to be a way to train BadGuys(tm) to cause them harm.  I'd much rather the systems be nerfed/changed/different enough that it feels good with minimal risk.  We already know what happens when BadGuys(tm) go to flight school, so it's a real danger.

Edited February 4, 2024 by Raisuli

[maxTRX]

Yes, yes the Legacy but  just to go against the grain...  once in a long while I'd like load up this YT vid showing a Super loaded with 6 Amraams, 2 winders and some other junk powering through an entire airshow routine including Pirouettes (show was outside of US )  Looked pretty cool!

[Raisuli]

29 minutes ago, oldcrusty said:

Yes, yes the Legacy but  just to go against the grain...  once in a long while I'd like load up this YT vid showing a Super loaded with 6 Amraams, 2 winders and some other junk powering through an entire airshow routine including Pirouettes (show was outside of US )  Looked pretty cool!

4x154A JSOW, 2x2,000 pound JDAMs, TGP, 1x120c, 2xAIM9x, all at 40,000 feet.  Way more difficult than doing a show in air thick enough to walk on... 

Besides, I don't spend any effort thinking about what other aircraft (real or imaginary) can do.  I kind of focus on what I can do with the modules available, and what their performance limitations are.  Doesn't really matter how fast the National Guard jets that fly over my house can turn, I don't fly one of those...

[maxTRX]

2 hours ago, Raisuli said:

4x154A JSOW, 2x2,000 pound JDAMs, TGP, 1x120c, 2xAIM9x, all at 40,000 feet.  Way more difficult than doing a show in air thick enough to walk on... 

Besides, I don't spend any effort thinking about what other aircraft (real or imaginary) can do.  I kind of focus on what I can do with the modules available, and what their performance limitations are.  Doesn't really matter how fast the National Guard jets that fly over my house can turn, I don't fly one of those...

But of course   I've spent my entire DCS career dealing with these limitations and bugs. What gives me the edge is my own NATOPS_crusty_suplement containing all kinds of workarounds, band-aids and 'tactics' to use mostly against AI bots...     So, when the revolving (once fixed) bugs show up again, I have the band-aid ready.

[Chaffee]

9 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

were missing some significant high alpha capability as it is
 

Really? Can you elaborate?

Holding 50+ AoA at 40 knots at will seems pretty good to me, especially in the high off-boresight environment of the 9X. Actual (and accurate) limitations are things like speed (subsonic at sea level with stores, for example).

But alpha!?

I've never seen anyone complain about the Hornet's AoA (unless they're getting shot down by it).

What do you think the Hornet should be able to do?

[Hulkbust44]

Really? Can you elaborate?

Holding 50+ AoA at 40 knots at will seems pretty good to me, especially in the high off-boresight environment of the 9X. Actual (and accurate) limitations are things like speed (subsonic at sea level with stores, for example).

But alpha!?

I've never seen anyone complain about the Hornet's AoA (unless they're getting shot down by it).

What do you think the Hornet should be able to do?

The instantaneous pitch rate/G-loading is too low leading to the inability for the DCS Hornet to execute the BFM nose-low gameplan of the real Hornets. You can get there if you paddle for the initial pick then vary your pull to keep within the g limits, but that's not right. You'll end up 450+ with a huge turn circle.

The other well documented problem has to do with the lack of roll/yaw authority at high alpha. Our model is clearly not using the OFP 10.7 version of the flight control system as would've been standard since the mid 90s. The most obvious problem is that DCS does not use differential stabilator for yaw control in any way.

Look at the stabs after 0:44

As you'll see here:

In DCS you just can't do the pirouette the same, not even close. Right now you can't even meet the entry requirements.

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[Chaffee]

3 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

The most obvious problem is that DCS does not use differential stabilator for yaw control in any way.
 

 

Thank you for the detailed response.

Agreed that roll seems soft at high AoA, although I've never checked the response at air-show altitudes.

Obviously we'd all love to see the HUD on the real thing, along with control inputs (especially the thrust levers), but that doesn't seem likely