noted Lack of female pilot models?

[buceador]

A female friend of mine who has recently got into DCS was astonished that are no female pilot models available for any of the aircraft!
20.0% of USAF pilots are female

Even the Russian Federation has its  ‘angels of death’, female pilots!
ED?  

Edited January 30, 2023 by buceador

[some1]

9 minutes ago, buceador said:

Even the Russian Federation has its  ‘angels of death’, female pilots!

Only in the last few years they accepted first women for training, who are graduating by now. (https://www.iwoaw.org/women-aviation-news/advocacy/after-a-nearly-80-year-hiatus-russian-women-can-be-fighter-pilots-and-aircraft-technicians-again/)

So for the time period and airframes simulated in DCS, no female pilots in Soviet/Russian aircraft is pretty much as accurate as it could be. 

As for the F-16, the aircraft still doesn't have any pilot body in the cockpit, so a female model is probably very low on priority list. 

 

[buceador]

10 minutes ago, some1 said:

Only in the last few years they accepted first women for training, who are graduating by now. (https://www.iwoaw.org/women-aviation-news/advocacy/after-a-nearly-80-year-hiatus-russian-women-can-be-fighter-pilots-and-aircraft-technicians-again/)

So for the time period and airframes simulated in DCS, no female pilots in Soviet/Russian aircraft is pretty much as accurate as it could be. 

As for the F-16, the aircraft still doesn't have any pilot body in the cockpit, so a female model is probably very low on priority list. 

 

She only flies the F-16.  All F-16 wingmen / AI have visible pilots, also external views as PLAYER show the pilot! 

I am aware that in this shot gender is difficult to assess but I guess it's the principle that she was referring to.

Edited January 30, 2023 by buceador

[some1]

How can you tell if that thing on the screenshot is a male or a female?

Seriously, with the helmet, mask and all the gear a pilot has to carry, you won't be able to tell. Even if ED puts a different model and calls it "female". 

Edited January 30, 2023 by some1

[buceador]

4 minutes ago, some1 said:

How can you tell if that thing on the screenshot is a male or a female?

Seriously, with the helmet, mask and all the gear a pilot has to carry, you won't be able to tell. Even if ED puts a different model and calls it "female". 

 

I said... "I  am aware that in this shot gender is difficult to assess but I guess it's the principle that she was referring to..."

Did you read my comment about "principle" ?

[razo+r]

Maybe OP should have a read through the previous X amount of threads regarding this request to see the current opinion of the community and ED on this subject. 

[LieutenantFalcon]

Sure it'd be nice to have variety so people can pick or have it randomized, but so far there's not even any internal model and the external model still wears incorrect gear. They'd have to get on that first. 

 

[some1]

7 minutes ago, buceador said:

I said... "I  am aware that in this shot gender is difficult to assess but I guess it's the principle that she was referring to..."

Did you read my comment about "principle" ?

No, because you've edited it after you've posted. 

If she's really so focused on being labelled as a woman in a game where you can't tell a man from a woman most of the time, then I don't think I can offer much help. It's possible to set the pilot photo in the logbook, and set the name of the pilot, maybe that could be useful.

[janitha2]

1 hour ago, some1 said:

How can you tell if that thing on the screenshot is a male or a female?

Seriously, with the helmet, mask and all the gear a pilot has to carry, you won't be able to tell. Even if ED puts a different model and calls it "female". 

 

better curves i guess? lol 

 

 

 

i set mine to 20...

[BIGNEWY]

2 hours ago, buceador said:

A female friend of mine who has recently got into DCS was astonished that are no female pilot models available for any of the aircraft!
20.0% of USAF pilots are female

Even the Russian Federation has its  ‘angels of death’, female pilots!
ED?  Very non PC?

Hi 

We have had this conversation many times on the ED forums, 

We would also like to see more female pilots in DCS, we already have female voice overs on the super carrier, wingman 4 on the AH-64D is a female voice ect. and hopefully in the future we will see a model. 

People seem to want to turn it into some PC issue or are against this line of thought, to make it clear our forums are not for political / social discussions so please bare it in mind before replying to this thread or it will end up being closed like the others in the past. 

thanks

 

 

 

[buceador]

3 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi 

We have had this conversation many times on the ED forums, 

We would also like to see more female pilots in DCS, we already have female voice overs on the super carrier, wingman 4 on the AH-64D is a female voice ect. and hopefully in the future we will see a model. 

People seem to want to turn it into some PC issue or are against this line of thought, to make it clear our forums are not for political / social discussions so please bare it in mind before replying to this thread or it will end up being closed like the others in the past. 

thanks

 

 

 

Totally agree re. PC / non PC perspectives.  I think it is a testament to the quality and detailing of the DCS product that the issue of a female pilot model has been raised.

[Furiz]

In my opinion if it were all female models in DCS I wouldn't even notice, I'm not here for that, I'm here for aircraft simulation. To me all the human models don't even have a gender, I don't even look at them that way, to be honest until I saw some of these threads I didn't even notice that.

F-16 and F-18 that I fly in are aircraft and they are always referred to as "she", same goes for ships, ships and aircraft gender is female.

Did you notice people asking ED to make a male F-16 aircraft? Ofc you didn't, cause we don't care about that.

 

Therefore I'm happy we can fly these beauties and enjoy the scenery, as for ED keep up the good work and bring us more toys in the future.

[buceador]

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

In my opinion if it were all female models in DCS I wouldn't even notice, I'm not here for that, I'm here for aircraft simulation. To me all the human models don't even have a gender, I don't even look at them that way, to be honest until I saw some of these threads I didn't even notice that.

F-16 and F-18 that I fly in are aircraft and they are always referred to as "she", same goes for ships, ships and aircraft gender is female.

Did you notice people asking ED to make a male F-16 aircraft? Ofc you didn't, cause we don't care about that.

 

Therefore I'm happy we can fly these beauties and enjoy the scenery, as for ED keep up the good work and bring us more toys in the future.

I totally understand what you are saying.

  " I'm here for aircraft simulation"

But some people are here for a variety of different reasons, for example, making cinematic movies, in which tiny details can add to the immersion / realism of the finished product.

[Furiz]

2 minutes ago, buceador said:

But some people are here for a variety of different reasons, for example, making cinematic movies, in which tiny details can add to the immersion / realism of the finished product.

Maybe some modders can help there, there must be some1 willing to make female pilot model.

[BIGNEWY]

Discussed this again with the team, if someday we offer multiple pilot models we'll certainly consider it then. 

thank you

[Viper1031]

I personally turn the pilot models off on any craft I fly. But I get the point about principle, and agree. Some people wanna see their gender expressed in the cockpit while they're flying and looking around, it adds realism for them. 

[Chain_1]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:39 AM, buceador said:

A female friend of mine who has recently got into DCS was astonished that are no female pilot models available for any of the aircraft!
20.0% of USAF pilots are female

Even the Russian Federation has its  ‘angels of death’, female pilots!
ED?  

 

Hope she sees this, bro.

[exhausted]

They should probably have more voice tracks recorded for different accents, languages, genders and voice types.

[TEMPEST.114]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:04 PM, Furiz said:

In my opinion if it were all female models in DCS I wouldn't even notice, I'm not here for that, I'm here for aircraft simulation. To me all the human models don't even have a gender, I don't even look at them that way, to be honest until I saw some of these threads I didn't even notice that.

F-16 and F-18 that I fly in are aircraft and they are always referred to as "she", same goes for ships, ships and aircraft gender is female.

Did you notice people asking ED to make a male F-16 aircraft? Ofc you didn't, cause we don't care about that.

 

Therefore I'm happy we can fly these beauties and enjoy the scenery, as for ED keep up the good work and bring us more toys in the future.

Because from your privileged position you don't have to. The default in DCS is male. White male to be exact. And when that applies to the players, they don't 'notice' it because it's their default. 

That the majority of the DCS community don't have the empathy or compassion to see that isn't a surprise, but it's still a sad indictment of the world at large. 

[TheFreshPrince]

Am 30.1.2023 um 11:24 schrieb some1:

How can you tell if that thing on the screenshot is a male or a female?

Seriously, with the helmet, mask and all the gear a pilot has to carry, you won't be able to tell. Even if ED puts a different model and calls it "female". 

 

Adam's apple? Clearly visible.

 

Should be very, very easy to implement the choice between the two main genders and also skin colour. As you point out, the proportions are rather neutral. Delete the Adam's apple, add some boobs. But apparently it's not wanted.

Edited March 19, 2023 by TheFreshPrince

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Personally the only time when I could see the pilot models being an issue, is with side-by-side cockpits and then especially in helicopters. There I'd love to see female pilot models too - otherwise I don't really care...
I'd much rather have female pilot voices, but as Bignewy said there has been some progress on the amount of female voices in the game.

At the moment we have:
- male US (Wags and the new supercarrier pilot voice)
- male UK
- male RU
- male FR
- male CN

Hopefully at some point in the not too distant future we can pick a female pilot voice from a drop-down menu in the Options-screen :-)
 

[some1]

1 hour ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Should be very, very easy to implement the choice between the two main genders and also skin colour. As you point out, the proportions are rather neutral. Delete the Adam's apple, add some boobs. But apparently it's not wanted.

 

Ok, you say it's very very easy? Then let's think for a moment.

A pilot model in DCS is part of the aircraft, there is not one model, there's many. That's pretty understandable because of different gear, uniforms, helmets used over the years by different countries. Some models could be reused in several aircraft, like "British WWII pilot", or "modern Soviet Fighter pilot" and so on, but with over 40 aircraft already in DCS, you still need to change about 20 unique models to make them more female looking.

And that's not only ED models, every 3rd party would have to adjust their artwork too.

Then the skin color. Should we make several sets of different textures for each aircraft, or make a dynamic skin texture with color adjustable by the user? Swapping textures is easy and already done by some modders. But it will quickly get out of hand if you want to create several options for each model for each aircraft. Say, 20 models * 2 genders * 4 skin colors, and we're already in the hundreds of new textures. Dynamic skin texture on the other hand needs to be implemented by ED first, and then for every model by the respective aircraft developer.

The above only covers external cockpit models, no the high-poly interior models, ATC voiceovers, etc.

So no, that's not "very, very easy". It's something that would require several weeks, if not months of work to be implemented across the current DCS aircraft fleet, and would involve all 3rd parties as well. Very few things are easy when talking about a complex software like DCS. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by some1

[Dragon1-1]

Splitting the skin texture from the rest of the atlas sounds like the most doable thing, although it'd still require quite a rework. It would be nice, particularly for older aircraft and helicopters, where you can see the pilot's face. Mi-8, for instance, is stuck with a very Russian-looking crew, despite the fact many majority black countries in Africa and elsewhere also use the type. There's even a campaign with a Hellenic UH-1 (admittedly broken since the old carrier was removed), but the crew don't look particularly Greek. 

For single-seaters, I wouldn't make that a priority. Indeed, because the face can't be seen on most of those, I'd suggest a dynamic color mask for the skin. This could be easier to do than changing the textures themselves.

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, Elphaba said:

Because from your privileged position you don't have to. The default in DCS is male. White male to be exact. And when that applies to the players, they don't 'notice' it because it's their default. 

That the majority of the DCS community don't have the empathy or compassion to see that isn't a surprise, but it's still a sad indictment of the world at large. 

That's not the real issue here, its the other way around, but that's whole another psychology problem which needs people educated in the subject to say a few words here.

Anyway, I'd love to see female models being added, if fact I'd probably use them if we had the option of selecting female or male pilot model.

[TheFreshPrince]

vor einer Stunde schrieb some1:

Ok, you say it's very very easy? Then let's think for a moment.

A pilot model in DCS is part of the aircraft, there is not one model, there's many. That's pretty understandable because of different gear, uniforms, helmets used over the years by different countries. Some models could be reused in several aircraft, like "British WWII pilot", or "modern Soviet Fighter pilot" and so on, but with over 40 aircraft already in DCS, you still need to change about 20 unique models to make them more female looking.

And that's not only ED models, every 3rd party would have to adjust their artwork too.

Then the skin color. Should we make several sets of different textures for each aircraft, or make a dynamic skin texture with color adjustable by the user? Swapping textures is easy and already done by some modders. But it will quickly get out of hand if you want to create several options for each model for each aircraft. Say, 20 models * 2 genders * 4 skin colors, and we're already in the hundreds of new textures. Dynamic skin texture on the other hand needs to be implemented by ED first, and then for every model by the respective aircraft developer.

The above only covers external cockpit models, no the high-poly interior models, ATC voiceovers, etc.

So no, that's not "very, very easy". It's something that would require several weeks, if not months of work to be implemented across the current DCS aircraft fleet, and would involve all 3rd parties as well. Very few things are easy when talking about a complex software like DCS. 

 

Well you have dozens of liveries for each plane that you can choose from and that will even be displayed to others in multiplayer. So if I want to change my pilot, and we're only talking about small parts of the whole model, that's now a problem? I'm no developer and I don't need this to be implemented.

 

But I think it's a necessary feature anyway to increase realism. And it's also about fairness. You just have to implement this at some point anyway. So why not set it on the agenda right away? In contrast to big developments like multithreading, dynamic weather, etc., this is a relatively small amount of work, at least in my guess. If changing to a dynamic pilot model instead of a fixed one for each aircraft would be easier, then sure why not. I don't think anyone demands to have this within this year, but to say "if someday we think about this"... Well...

And as you say, the longer you wait and build stuff as it is right now, the more stuff you will have to revisit later. Which will make it more and more unlikely to ever have this feature.