MT bottlenecking

[ldnz]

I've got a 9700K too. It does seem like this generation isn't seeing the benefit of MT which seems very strange.

[Leviathan667]

I am using a 12700 KF and am CPU bottlenecked too it seems (if I correctly interpret the CPU bound red text with in the screenshot below). Though, going MT will use more of the CPU (from 11 to 17 % in 2D and from 18 to 28 % in VR).

[flankerjun]

I have a i5 7500 and RTX2070,with 32G RAM,flat monitor,but i have zero improvement on FPS,maybe my CPU is too old, i need to upgrate it to 13th generation I7.

[NineLine]

22 minutes ago, flankerjun said:

I have a i5 7500 and RTX2070,with 32G RAM,flat monitor,but i have zero improvement on FPS,maybe my CPU is too old, i need to upgrate it to 13th generation I7.

Do a google search and research, usually, you can find the best CPU for your GPU. Your GPU should be decent with a bit more CPU power I think. 

2 hours ago, Leviathan667 said:

I am using a 12700 KF and am CPU bottlenecked too it seems (if I correctly interpret the CPU bound red text with in the screenshot below). Though, going MT will use more of the CPU (from 11 to 17 % in 2D and from 18 to 28 % in VR).

What GPU? What headset, what settings? MT will not be the magic bullet for everything, you will still need to tune your settings accordingly. 

3 hours ago, ldnz said:

I've got a 9700K too. It does seem like this generation isn't seeing the benefit of MT which seems very strange.

Its not that strange as it is older, that said it still depends on many things, GPU, what other hardware you have, settings, VR or not, which module, etc. 

 

[cyristvirus]

11 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Do a google search and research, usually, you can find the best CPU for your GPU. Your GPU should be decent with a bit more CPU power I think. 

What GPU? What headset, what settings? MT will not be the magic bullet for everything, you will still need to tune your settings accordingly. 

Its not that strange as it is older, that said it still depends on many things, GPU, what other hardware you have, settings, VR or not, which module, etc. 

 

So why are people saying they are getting better results after various techquies like repairing their file system, removing the saved games, etc? Also why are people with the same setups experiencing way better results. I mean rather than say, oh your processor is just old, when its clearly not a processor issue, but maybe more like something can be done to fix this and we will look into it, would result in a group activity to find a solution. I enjoy dcs, but over the years its been nothing but slower results for many of us, and then being told its us rather than working together with the community to find a solution. I'm glad that it seems most people are getting great results, but wouldn't it be great if we could work together to help more people enjoy the product?

It clearly seems again that the DCS support team is just going to have its users have to figure out another solution for those who don't just get immediate results the first time around.

[NineLine]

8 minutes ago, cyristvirus said:

So why are people saying they are getting better results after various techquies like repairing their file system, removing the saved games, etc? Also why are people with the same setups experiencing way better results. I mean rather than say, oh your processor is just old, when its clearly not a processor issue, but maybe more like something can be done to fix this and we will look into it, would result in a group activity to find a solution. I enjoy dcs, but over the years its been nothing but slower results for many of us, and then being told its us rather than working together with the community to find a solution. I'm glad that it seems most people are getting great results, but wouldn't it be great if we could work together to help more people enjoy the product?

It clearly seems again that the DCS support team is just going to have its users have to figure out another solution for those who don't just get immediate results the first time around.

If you look at my messages I did not say oh your CPU is old that's it nothing else for you. Even in the video I shared the person is using an older CPU with good results.

The chances of you having the exact same system as someone else is rare, the chances of us determining those differences for you are impossible. We can only try and give you some help the best we can, if you are not seeing results you will need to help us help you. 

For someone with a i9 9900kf, there does seem to be something wrong, you should see some improvements, but its not as easy as saying do this or that if we have no idea what your system and such looks like.  You didnt give us all the required info for a bug report, such as dxdiag files, logs ect. Nor did you tell us what you have tried or what you havent tried. We are not mind readers. 

[cyristvirus]

I think its pretty common from what I have seen for the dcs support and devs to put it on the users to find workarounds to fix the issues. Regardless we are going to keep working at it because we enjoy the game. If you read the other posts about the MT there is some obvious issues that are not dependent on user error, it seems to be a common issue for many people and though I agree we haven't all provided enough information to solve the problem universally, we can work at it to find a common solution. Maybe an approach could be to encourage us to help. I sense that the DCS support has kind of always pushed it on the customers fault rather than supporting the search for solution. If you read reddit and other communities that surround DCS you will find the same theme. Its possible you could turn this around.

When I can I'm going to repair my files, remove the saves, and then reformat my pc and star over so I can document what helped or didn't. 

[Maduce]

Same issue here i9 9900k, 3080ti, 32gb ram, Oculus Rift S. Didn't think my processor was that old, that being said who afford to buy the newest CPU every year or so.  Users just giving feedback like the devs ask for. I applaud the effort though!

[Hoirtel]

I had good results my i9 9900k. I posted the capframex graphs on the mt discussion to thread.

FPS difference was huge in certain places (eh supercarrier deck) and decent in busy sections. However consistency is great throughout, really noticeable in VR. 

Chip is a little old for my needs so will still upgrade but MT is working well. 

[NineLine]

2 hours ago, cyristvirus said:

I think its pretty common from what I have seen for the dcs support and devs to put it on the users to find workarounds to fix the issues. Regardless we are going to keep working at it because we enjoy the game. If you read the other posts about the MT there is some obvious issues that are not dependent on user error, it seems to be a common issue for many people and though I agree we haven't all provided enough information to solve the problem universally, we can work at it to find a common solution. Maybe an approach could be to encourage us to help. I sense that the DCS support has kind of always pushed it on the customers fault rather than supporting the search for solution. If you read reddit and other communities that surround DCS you will find the same theme. Its possible you could turn this around.

When I can I'm going to repair my files, remove the saves, and then reformat my pc and star over so I can document what helped or didn't. 

Yet I asked you for more info and you are still not giving it to me, I don't know who to help without the full picture. Sorry. I'm still here, 10pm on a Saturday night trying to get more info from you to help you and you keep replying to me that I am pushing you a way? I dont understand. 

21 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I had good results my i9 9900k. I posted the capframex graphs on the mt discussion to thread.

FPS difference was huge in certain places (eh supercarrier deck) and decent in busy sections. However consistency is great throughout, really noticeable in VR. 

Chip is a little old for my needs so will still upgrade but MT is working well. 

Hey thanks for this, can you post your full specs and maybe even your in-game settings maybe it can help others here as well. 

[Shibbyland]

Hey Nineline, are you familiar with the Operation Epsom campaign? I understand that to be pretty CPU intensive. I'm getting 100% CPU usage for almost the entirety of each mission. I need to do a bit more research and compare to none MT. Despite the CPU and GPU usage sitting at 100%, it's generally pretty smooth except for if I fly low over Caen.

With regard to upgrading components. I'm looking at a circa $2800 upgrade for just mid level gear and I tend to find that the only game I play that needs such upgrades is DCS. My PC just doesn't struggle with anything else I play. Since 2017, I've upgraded CPUs twice and GPU once. I've added RAM, changed hard drives, added cooling but in each upgrade I've really only done it to play DCS. It wasn't so bad when I could alternate upgrades (CPU one year, GPU the next then maybe nothing for a year) but the prices of PC parts at the moment are mad.

DCS pushes the limits, it's advanced a long way in a relatively short time which is fantastic. Unfortunately for me, I can see I'm going to get left behind. Inflation has utterly demolished my ability to keep up with the tech and achieve the same level of performance.

 

My specs:

i7 9700k, RTX 2060 super, 32 GB RAM, DCS on it's own 1 TB Nvme drive.

[Hoirtel]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Yet I asked you for more info and you are still not giving it to me, I don't know who to help without the full picture. Sorry. I'm still here, 10pm on a Saturday night trying to get more info from you to help you and you keep replying to me that I am pushing you a way? I dont understand. 

Hey thanks for this, can you post your full specs and maybe even your in-game settings maybe it can help others here as well. 

Oculus Quest 2, full resolution, 0.9 FOV, did not specifically run openXR (apparently its always on in MT??). Testeed on Plasma's torture trackfile. System specs in graph window. 9900KS, 64Gb 3600 C18, 3090, win 10.

I think this is a great improvement. 45 average to 55 is just a bit over 20% increase, but even better is the frame consistency. Absolutely great. Actual FPS gain does vary. On the supercarrier cold start, on the deck my gain in FPS is much higher. Possibly double.

Settings

ST

MT

Edited March 12, 2023 by Hoirtel

[Baldrick33]

7 hours ago, NineLine said:

 MT will not be the magic bullet for everything, you will still need to tune your settings accordingly. 

This is day two of one of the biggest changes in DCS code for a very long time. It seems reasonable there will be a lot of feedback of variable results, it is the nature of PCs. Some of which will be fixable through settings, with ED and the communities help - it is amazing what quickly gets discovered with this group.

There will also be a ton of useful feedback for the developers that is simply impossible to gain in months of closed beta testing. There are so many variables.

A lot depends upon what people use DCS for as to which hardware to buy and we aren’t even close to having a definitive answer for each use case. There will be some bugs or design changes that will get picked up from open beta testing feedback. Knowing what to tune may take some time to evolve.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Baldrick33

[Leviathan667]

18 hours ago, NineLine said:

What GPU? What headset, what settings? MT will not be the magic bullet for everything, you will still need to tune your settings accordingly. 

Hi NineLine,

RX 6900 XT + 12700 KF + 64 GB DDR5 + Oculus Quest 2 (at 1.4X rendering resolution - 5152 x 2608)

Settings see below

Also, I attached the image of the task manager where I compare 4 configurations: ST in 2D, ST in VR, MT in 2D and MT in VR. As I said previously, MT makes a difference and this is good. But it does seems my CPU is still the bottleneck when it comes to fps. Granted, MT uses more of it than ST but it seems to stop short at 28 % (it does not fully use my CPU).

 

DxDiag.txt

Edited March 12, 2023 by Leviathan667
Added rendering resolution for the Quest 2

[trevoC]

Also experiencing oddities.

Testing a new build 7900x3D/4090 and I see little to no gains between older single threaded and multi-threaded version. (hard to say if I'm gaining a frame or two in MT or margin of error).

I also noticed like another person mentioned that I float around specific frames a lot.... Almost like I have vsync on. It sits around 60 fps a lot. If I crank down the settings it will jump to 90 fps but rarely in between. Just when you think its locked it will hit mid 70's for a few seconds and then back to 60. No matter the scenario, marianas in a huey or caucus in an FC3 aircraft.

Before I would see huge fps differences between these two scenarios.

Also CPU bound according to DCS frame times and see the same fps across all 4 scenarios:

single threaded - parked cores (running on high cache cores)
multi threaded - parked cores
single threaded - no parked cores (all cores enabled)
multi threaded - no parked cores (all cores enabled)

All 4 scenarios are within 1 or 2 fps from each other. This is very strange behavior.... vcache seems to have zero effect along with multi threading.

[witwas]

I have the same setup together with a G2, getting consistent 90fps on the channel map even flying low level over cities in the spit.

Before MT this was a struggle now super smooth.

[trevoC]

6 minutes ago, witwas said:

I have the same setup together with a G2, getting consistent 90fps on the channel map even flying low level over cities in the spit.

Before MT this was a struggle now super smooth.

Its easy to get 90fps with the 7x3D/4090, it just doesn't make a difference if I'm single or multi threaded DCS apparently. I have little (2 fps max) to no gains.

I am putting together a crazy unit heavy map to test if I do see a difference in these scenarios.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 3/11/2023 at 2:22 PM, Fiber_23 said:

Just fixed my issue by completely removing DCS.openbeta in Saved Games [...] Super weird, but fixed it.

Yes, it fixed things for me as well, thank you for the tip!
I was cpu bound in all the missions I tried, with the framerate window alternating between Main Thread and Rendering Thread. CPU frametimes are a lot more stable now so it removed the stutters I was experiencing. Everything runs smoothly again

[festr]

2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes, it fixed things for me as well, thank you for the tip!
I was cpu bound in all the missions I tried, with the framerate window alternating between Main Thread and Rendering Thread. CPU frametimes are a lot more stable now so it removed the stutters I was experiencing. Everything runs smoothly again

and after you did solve it - what you see in the framerate window ? No main thread / render thread bound ? What is there instead? 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, festr said:

and after you did solve it - what you see in the framerate window ? No main thread / render thread bound ? What is there instead? 

Instead it says “GPU bound” 99% of the time, unless I look straight up at high altitude and get 90fps, then it says “CPU bound main thread”.

[KoleTang]

Has anyone tried just deleting the cached shaders folders DCS.openbeta\fxo and DCS.openbeta\metashaders2?

[gwizdek]

For me there are two instances where I can see 100% usage on single core in VR

1. If I have Turbo Mode in OpenXR Toolkit enabled

2. If I limit max FPS (with RST Server) to a number my GPU can sustain

(this is strange one - one of my cores is 100% utilised, but ingame FPS counter switches and starts to show GPU bound. Like it's showing oposite to what's actually hapening)

null

[ldnz]

Heres my dcs.log with mt.lua / extra cpu information in it. Its gotta be core pinning challenges, can't be easy trying to calculate and pin all the various threadpools with so many different processor configurations. 

Looking at this - coremasks array is looking for a cpuset with id -1, but there isn't any, but there is a 4294967295, surely not a good old int/unsigned int bug?

dcs.log

Edited March 13, 2023 by ldnz

[Shibbyland]

I've tried deleting cache and metashaders. Don't really want to delete the entire saved game folder (I'll lose a heap of campaign saves won't I?).

Still getting 100% CPU for extended periods of time playing operation epsom.

Please see log.  My CPU is an i7 9700k and I'm running an RTX 2060 and 32gb RAM. DCS installed on its own 1TB nvme. 

My settings are a combination of High and low, resolution 1680x1090

dcs.log

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, Shibbyland said:

I've tried deleting cache and metashaders. Don't really want to delete the entire saved game folder (I'll lose a heap of campaign saves won't I?).

 

If you rename your Saved game folder, see if it works. If it does you can copy your campaign, input & mission stuff from the renamed folder to the new one. If it makes no difference just delete the new folder and rename the old one back.