DCS: AH-64D Flight Model discussion

[Hotdognz]

Sorry what is FTR that people are talking about and where do I assign it on my Joystick ??

[Amarok_73]

30 minutes ago, Trigger said:

Sounds to me like the wish list. My only question: How is the real thing behaving, and how close to it are we in our simulation (...)

There's other, way more valid point of view - how much the real thing cost? Something like 28 millions USD, way to much to spare like few hundred thousands more on decent stabilisation system, leaving it in the pilot's hands and legs. Even if this is Boeing, it's still not the 737 MAX
As Casmo said in his video, the long stick does the job, however the current model is still too touchy in his opinion.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Amarok_73

[admiki]

10 minutes ago, Hotdognz said:

Sorry what is FTR that people are talking about and where do I assign it on my Joystick ??

Force trim release.

Simplified explanation: in real helicopter (most of them) cyclic wants to stay in one place. That is called trimmed position. As you probably know, depending on flight regime, that position where you want stick to stay changes. Now, you can fight against force trim, or you can hold force trim release and you will have what is called "sloppy stick" meaning stick now does not want to stay in that trimmed position. Once you release FTR stick will try to stay in that new trimmed position.

In relation to Apache, it also gives information to SCAS what you want it to do.

Where do you want it binded? Only you can answer that question depending on what type of joystick you have. 

I personally have it on a hat, so I can comfortably hold it depressed for extended periods of time.

[jubuttib]

On 5/29/2023 at 2:14 PM, Trigger said:

Sounds to me like the wish list. My only question: How is the real thing behaving, and how close to it are we in our simulation? And one more: extended stick or not?

Besides that, I just expect - flying a helicopter - to be constantly busy with little inputs via pedals and cyclic. It is a whirly bird and no fixed wing flying machine.

I just like that bird.

100%, it should fly like the real thing, whatever the real thing is like at the end. And this isn't necessarily to be taken as me wanting the helicopter to change either, this is more a commentary on how I'm finding it compared to the other helicopters, and how those differences pertain to my likes and dislikes. But the module isn't, and shouldn't made to suit my likes and dislikes instead of realism, and it certainly has its own character.

And yeah, I do expect to be busy in a helicopter, and I am fairly busy in all of them, except the Ka-50 with its really strong autopilot capabilities and inherently more stable coaxial layout, but I did not expect the Apache to be quite so unstable. I do still like it a whole lot, and continue to keep getting better at flying it.

EDIT: Oh, and the "and if the controls were equally fast in unsprung stick trim mode as they are in center position trim mode" is just plainly a bug, the trimming mode selected shouldn't affect the control movement speed. Either the Instant and Unsprung stick trim modes are too slow, or the center position trim mode is too fast. I _really_ hope that instant and unsprung are too slow, because the helicopter is way easier to fly with the fast inputs of center position trim mode.

On 5/29/2023 at 3:03 PM, admiki said:

In relation to Apache, it also gives information to SCAS what you want it to do.

Just to note, it's the same for the Hind and Ka-50 as well, the trim button also interacts with the autopilot/stability augmentation systems on those as well. Interestingly it doesn't on the Hip, the reason being AFAIK that it has a 3rd person in the cockpit whose job it is to tune the autopilot channels manually.

Edited June 13, 2023 by jubuttib

[pii]

On 5/27/2023 at 4:13 PM, admiki said:

That's largely fixed in this latest patch. 

IMO, people flying DCS Apache will have a lot better results if they stop flying solely by IHADSS and start looking outside.

That and correct use of trim.

 

You're assuming. While some might or might not know I am well aware of how to use trim and how to look outside. The FM is borked and it causes poor handling as mentioned in the patch notes at lower speeds, notes that were done by ED so you don't have to believe me just read the notes.

Does ED also seem unfamiliar with how to operate the trim?

[Hotdognz]

19 hours ago, admiki said:

Force trim release.

Simplified explanation: in real helicopter (most of them) cyclic wants to stay in one place. That is called trimmed position. As you probably know, depending on flight regime, that position where you want stick to stay changes. Now, you can fight against force trim, or you can hold force trim release and you will have what is called "sloppy stick" meaning stick now does not want to stay in that trimmed position. Once you release FTR stick will try to stay in that new trimmed position.

In relation to Apache, it also gives information to SCAS what you want it to do.

Where do you want it binded? Only you can answer that question depending on what type of joystick you have. 

I personally have it on a hat, so I can comfortably hold it depressed for extended periods of time.

Ok cheers, I have a joystick with clutches, I push it where I want and let go of it and its stays put, so no need for FTR then ??

 

[bradmick]

1 hour ago, Hotdognz said:

Ok cheers, I have a joystick with clutches, I push it where I want and let go of it and its stays put, so no need for FTR then ??

 

You still have to update the FMC on that position by pushing the force trim release button. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by bradmick

[Hotdognz]

7 minutes ago, bradmick said:

You still have to update the FMC on that position by pushing the force trim release button. 

 

Thanks

[Moxica]

This 10 cm extension arrived today; A gamechanger for me. The Apache is a totally different experience. 
(To the better, for the record)

[TZeer]

Although the FM has improved there is still some "strange" behaviour out there.

Few I notice.

- Oscilation on the yaw. Had a few times where I have come to a hover, and with no inputs on collective or pedals, I can see the yaw channel working, with a small movement back and forth on the nose.

- Sudden large needs for yaw input when slowing down. Comming in nice and easy, everything going good, then a sudden need for larger yaw inputs, as you are passing a "limit". Smooth movement goes to a sudden need for yaw input.

- Stability, very "twitchy"? I have virpil extension, and a 10 setting on the curvature on pitch and roll. I have also reduced my deadzone to 1 from 3, as the deadzone was to much how "twitchy" it is now.

[M1Combat]

12 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

Thanks

Yes you still need this bound.  What you need to do differently relative to regular (return to center) style setups is choose a different stick mode in the "special" options for the Apache.  I don't recall what it's called for that type of stick though.  Something about ne centering spring or something like that.

 

Also...  the idea with the FTR button...  Press it and hold it while YOU are flying.  Release it when you want the chopper to fly and continue doing the flight envelope you've placed it in.

Edited May 30, 2023 by M1Combat

[SloppyDog]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:52 AM, Hotdognz said:

Ok cheers, I have a joystick with clutches, I push it where I want and let go of it and its stays put, so no need for FTR then ??

 

What joystick do you have? I'm curious. The only ones available, that I know of, are the VKB one and those old Microsoft Sidewinders.

Edited May 31, 2023 by SloppyDog

[Hotdognz]

15 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

What joystick do you have? I'm curious. The only ones available, that I know of, are the VKB one and those old Microsoft Sidewinders.

 

I have the Winwing Orion 2 with out the springs in what they call dampers, but they actually work by holding the stick where you want when you let go, they work really well too.

[admiki]

5 hours ago, SloppyDog said:

What joystick do you have? I'm curious. The only ones available, that I know of, are the VKB one and those old Microsoft Sidewinders.

 

Virpil made new base with clutches. You can also put motorcycle steering dampers as a pseudo FT.

[Hotdognz]

Thanks for the info on the FTR can some one tell me whats its called in the bindings so I can map it ??

 

[corbu1]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb admiki:

Virpil made new base with clutches. You can also put motorcycle steering dampers as a pseudo FT.

This is what I use with a 40 cm stick extension. Works very nice for me. It‘s only required to mention, that you will will always feel the dampers resistance on stick move….

[PHMAC]

For anyone interested, check out this mod for the Trustmaster Warthog:

Demo

Actual mod

It's a very cheap non destructive modification that makes the TM Warthog function like a joystick with clutches and mimic the trim in real helicopters.

It does require you to disassemble your Warthog base which can be a bit tricky and I recommend applying Nyogel when assembling your Warthog again.

Basically you remove the big spring and raise the gimbal slightly with a couple of washers. This way the friction on the gimbal increases making the joystick stay in place where you put it.

You can adjust the amount of friction by tightening or loosening the 8 screws on top of the Warthog base. I can move my Warthog easily with one finger and it just stays in place.

I have done this mod a year ago with the Virpil 20cm extension and it massively improved my helicopter flying and sense of immersion.

 

Credits goes to Horus-DCS

[TZeer]

Just made a small post in the "Controller Question and bugs" section of the forum. It's a topic I don't think is very well know, but can be very important in trying to control this beast.

Primarly aimed towards Virpil users, but can be relevant for others as well.
 

 

[[DE] T-Bone]

After a few hours of flying, I am mostly positive about the changes. The stability in flight as well as the maneuverability have improved significantly. Likewise, I find the ATT/ALT modes have a higher presence and work very well.

However, hovering is wobbly and it doesn't feel at all like flying a heavy helicopter, which should bring some inertia. Even with my hardware (55 cm extension), I had to adjust the curves a bit because it was way too sensitive and then started oscillating. Likewise as mentioned before, taxiing on the ground is still a challenge.

These are my experiences so far since the patch. A good step forward, but still room for improvement in some places.

[firefox121]

En 19/5/2023 a las 19:27, Amarok_73 dijo:

Thank You for this clarification. At least now I know, that my way of using the Forces Trim is correct.
Apparently it seems, that for some users, the 2.25 % margin is way too small, especially, when the one is using the FFB stick, where usually the center is quite wobbly and loose. For me it's impossible to keep the stick steady within this limit as I am using rather small centering forces in FFB settings (about 15-30 percent) and the Logitech G940 is known of his relatively large area around the point of forces center, where no resistance is noticeable. For sure it's bigger than 2.25% of the axle range.
Because all above, and what You've said about the differences and specificity of the controllers, I'd suggest (not to mention really appreciate) to provide the parameter in Special parameters, that will let the user to set the satisfying margin instead of use the hardcoded 2.25%.

 

I found an easy way ro reduce the wobbly centering issue in the sidewinder FFB2 joystick, I put a velcro cutout soft face between the gimbal and the sidewinder skeleton , so when you move the joy it stands where you left it with almost no wobbly feeling, I attach a photo to  illustrate what I am saying.....is a game changer so SAS no more loses authority because of the little movements induced to the stick.

So in this way, and with the app simffb the joy remains with no wobbly movement.

At least till DCS finds a slider option

Edited June 8, 2023 by firefox121

[Belphe]

Hopefully, a few subtle but meaningful tweaks to the FM in the patch today (subject to change)

[bies]

Casmo's comments on updated Apache FM, it looks like a step in the right direction, but there is some issue with excessive tail rotor thrust.

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by bies

[Raptor9]

I submit exhibit A: 

It may be a matter of how the control hardware is set up and tuned. And the ground friction may be looked at as well, but I really wish he would have had his Control Indicator displayed to see the actual control inputs and input magnitudes during the video.

[TZeer]

I have the same behavior while taking off.

Getting light on the wheels, countering the yaw with my pedals. At the same time I need to put in cyclic to prevent the skidding. But as you get light enough and takeoff, the Apache almost wants to tip over. You can counter it, but I get the same behavior as Casmo. 

But as soon as you are clear of the ground and the "wobble" is taken out, it's all stable.

Both my pedals and cyclic is set to "Joystick without springs and FFB". I have also removed all deadzones on the stick and pedals, as there is no need for a hard center since I don't need to to be able to reset the joystick to center after trimming.

Unfortunately I'm at work now, so can't give a video or trackfile.

[pii]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:52 AM, Hotdognz said:

Ok cheers, I have a joystick with clutches, I push it where I want and let go of it and its stays put, so no need for FTR then ??

 

You may find a need for it. BTW what stick did you get?